From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F_Kayaalp?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: Privileges and practicalities [was: Re: [ELPA] New package: repology.el] Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2021 22:17:06 +0300 Message-ID: <87wnwn9r2l.fsf@gkayaalp.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35095"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-tangents@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, ulm@gentoo.org, ams@gnu.org, arthur.miller@live.com, dgutov@yandex.ru, eliz@gnu.org To: Jean Louis Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 08 20:26:55 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kxxPT-00090H-J8 for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 08 Jan 2021 20:26:55 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42902 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kxxPS-0005Qa-LI for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 08 Jan 2021 14:26:54 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42208) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kxxGJ-0005RW-0d for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Jan 2021 14:17:28 -0500 Original-Received: from relay12.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.178.232]:47185) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kxxG6-00014A-Ay; Fri, 08 Jan 2021 14:17:17 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost (unknown [176.217.158.217]) (Authenticated sender: self@gkayaalp.com) by relay12.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AD2D7200006; Fri, 8 Jan 2021 19:17:07 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (message from Jean Louis on Fri, 08 Jan 2021 11:46:02 +0000) Received-SPF: none client-ip=217.70.178.232; envelope-from=self@gkayaalp.com; helo=relay12.mail.gandi.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-tangents" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:529 Archived-At: On 2021-01-08 11:46 GMT, Jean Louis wrote: >>Free software is a privilege, as it is. It requires a lot of >>knowledge about computing praxis and culture, internet culture, legal >>stuff, and politics. > How privilege? I don't see how is free software privilege. Not for > me. It should be basic human right for users to have control of their > data, and not to let other companies or individuals control my data. That=E2=80=99s what a privileged person would say. E.g., I=E2=80=99m an et= hnically Turkish guy in Turkey. I look Turkish, I speak Standard Turkish with flawless mid-upper class Istanbulite accent, I=E2=80=99m a cisgender and heterosexual male. And I=E2=80=99m highly educated individual with a family backing his higher ed adventure. This means I don=E2=80=99t get stopped and searched, I don=E2=80=99t get harassed on the street, I don=E2=80=99t need = to be afraid of the police, that I won=E2=80=99t be arrested or attacked for what langua= ge I speak, I won=E2=80=99t be looked down upon, and won=E2=80=99t have to worry= about a lot of things women, LGBTQ+, and non-Turkish ethnicities will have to worry about. There=E2=80=99s a whole host of experiences that I will never have = to get to know in person just because who I am. That=E2=80=99s how privilege works. It has you live in a safe, protective bubble. And it blurs the vision of the outer world. Free software is a privilege if you don=E2=80=99t have the time to learn a = whole new culture. Free software is a privilege if your hardware can=E2=80=99t r= un it and you don=E2=80=99t have the money to buy stuff that does (for most pe= ople even a dongle is a serious investment). Free software is a privilege if you don=E2=80=99t get to make decisions about what software to use. Free software is a privilege if a clan of so-called software freedom advocates are censoring vital information because they happened to like so, saying nonsense like: > We have fully free software that need not ever interact or cooperate > with non free. This might be partially true for a software developer working only on free software, but it=E2=80=99s a privileged position because very little p= eople have the chance to learn enough to do that and an even little opportunities exist for those who do put in the time. Meanwhile the rest of us plebeians have to make Zoom work on our computers, use sub-optimal hardware, and figure things on our own. All the while the likes of you see themselves entitled to judge the morality of our choices and obligations. >>Most software, and most of popular software is closed source. > I did not count to say so. But what is popular it does not matter in > GNU project, what matters is that we do have fully free software and > operating systems. We don=E2=80=99t. Nobody has. Maybe, as the one who attempts to deny the experience of billions of people, it=E2=80=99s kinda on you to do the count= ing there. >>Most users of software _cannot_ avoid non-free software. > Whoever is informed well and decides so themselves can switch to fully > free software. People make decisions on their own. No. If you have to use Zoom for your classes or meetings, you have to. If you need to use WhatsApp, you have to. Nobody but a very small amount of people are free in making these decisions. > GNU project is everything else but not ivory tower. Otherwise you > would not be able to discuss here. Neat little non sequitur there. GNU opens itself to the world and asks everyone to back its cause so you don=E2=80=99t get to pick who says what anyways. > What GNU project promotes is free software. GNU never says to its > users to use exclusively free software [...] If you make it hard to use non-free software one _has_ to use with free software they _want_ to use, this is effectively a discriminatory, exclusionary, and unegalitarian practice. And it=E2=80=99s also anti-GNU because this makes it _really_ hard to suggest people that they give free software a try. > [...] and never condemns people for using proprietary software. Yeah, no. All in all, if GNU wants to be a fun little software guys group like 9front or OpenBSD, fine, but be honest about it. If GNU and FSF wants to fight for everyone=E2=80=99s software freedom and will continue to ask donations for this cause, then this is not the way to do it. It comes off as entitled and disconnected. Today, there=E2=80=99s nothing that=E2=80=99s uniquely copyleft software, m= aybe except Emacs. LLVM and clang is as good as GCC, coreutils is better than BSD userland or busybox but not by a huge margin, Zsh is by no means inferior to Bash, etc. OSes like FreeBSD are almost fully viable on desktop, and most of what works on GNU/Linux works there. If copyleft and free-as-in-speech-not-beer is to remain relevant in the future, this whole attitude needs to change. > Your statements are too general and I do not see how they relate. You do not _want_ to see, FTFY. There=E2=80=99s a reason I changed the sub= ject line. But all in all, to satisfy your unprecedented love for specific things and your dislike of attempting to make that last little connection: your attack on repology.el comes from a privileged position and the condemnation of even linking to information regarding non-free software in the form of repology.org, going so far as to suggesting stealing these people=E2=80=99s work and creating a knock-off =E2=80=98frep= ology.org=E2=80=99 comes from a privileged, exclusionary, and backwards position. This whole thing represents a self-destructive anti-free-software stance that is detrimental to the quest for software freedom as a right for all humans, and only caters to the handful FOSS zealots (one of which is I) who have put years into learning this whole travesty of an online culture and surrounding issues. As someone who believes in software freedom as a general good for human society I think you and the likes of you are hurting this endeavour. --=20 =C4=B0. G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp / @cadadr / pgp: 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427