From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Antoine =?UTF-8?Q?Beaupr=C3=A9?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#53396: 27.1; icalendar rendering should include timezone Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 09:20:01 -0400 Organization: Debian Message-ID: <87wndrpa0u.fsf@curie.anarc.at> References: <87tudyb2lh.fsf@curie.anarc.at> <83fskf6fu8.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15811"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: 53396@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 08 15:32:32 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nyvnU-0003yt-KB for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 15:32:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52650 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyvnT-0004Am-Df for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 09:32:31 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40482) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyvcM-0007Cx-0L for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 09:21:02 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:48877) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyvcL-0006gq-MT for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 09:21:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nyvcL-0001JE-JD for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 09:21:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Antoine =?UTF-8?Q?Beaupr=C3=A9?= Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 13:21:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 53396 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 53396-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B53396.16546944074956 (code B ref 53396); Wed, 08 Jun 2022 13:21:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 53396) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jun 2022 13:20:07 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42773 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nyvbS-0001Hs-HI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 09:20:06 -0400 Original-Received: from marcos.anarc.at ([206.248.172.91]:43834) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nyvbP-0001HP-5A for 53396@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 09:20:04 -0400 Original-Received: by marcos.anarc.at (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B548710E3A7; Wed, 8 Jun 2022 09:20:01 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=debian.org; s=marcos-debian.anarcat.user; t=1654694401; bh=NBVJpw3J7PDBvDd7sPwEc7+559uKV/wlhp+ELfU9760=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=AXUp0Ie1+REfvajrRNceUklYJCPCiBXnYYQj/vUb7E4hnbn/MsaXcY3YhRSfBItAh TDmbV9t2hDClNWphsHhYhvi0waPJ9cl9zTJObWO1Qpuhqigs8bA5q+Yjf2/yumNtWi AXjhTVPG3z+1OZ1ZD5n7olKrEcaWJJm9uFPv30/70MbmqDI4v5EAwFwvLk/x6Q21DJ P3Ln4AgXD+THt+0QYlAoGyiqQNlXYx+4nPVnFPIio9ImSwIA8dzK2uXmPbA6A4DvUv uB5zsUxa1wGFmEjTBhxER3dPvy8I1QKl1881Re7g+wtf5hWLn83DBzFL4SQRMidbqM jL659+qR8E7gw== Original-Received: by curie.anarc.at (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1424812882; Wed, 8 Jun 2022 09:20:01 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <83fskf6fu8.fsf@gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:233972 Archived-At: On 2022-06-08 05:37:03, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Resent-From: Stefan Kangas >> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" >> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org >> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org >> Cc: 53396@debbugs.gnu.org >> From: Stefan Kangas >> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 17:04:10 -0500 >>=20 >> Antoine Beaupr=C3=A9 writes: >>=20 >> > 1. the default date format is American. I understand Americans first >> > built Emacs, but its use has largely spread outside of the United >> > States of America which has another, standard, time format called >> > ISO 8601. workaround: (setq calendar-date-style 'iso) >>=20 >> Why not change the `calendar-date-style' default to `iso'? >>=20 >> It seems overly US-centric to prefer `american' when most of the rest of >> the world does not use that particular style. > > IMNSHO, 'iso' is a bad default because no one uses it. That's a strange comment after one user telling you explicitly that they use it. How big is that "no one" group in your mind anyways? It's at least one, I suspect it's more. It's even more bizarre to state that the actual ISO 8601 standard is used by "no one" considering it's, well, an ISO standard. According to Wikipedia: On the Internet, the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) uses the IETF standard based on ISO 8601 in defining a profile of the standard that restricts the supported date and time formats to reduce the chance of error and the complexity of software. Also: The ISO 8601 week date, as of 2006, appeared in its basic form on major brand commercial packaging in the United States. The article goes on documenting 42 different countries, including the United States of America, which have formally adopted ISO 8601 as a national standard (ANSI INCITS 30-1997 (R2008) and NIST FIPS PUB 4-2, specifically, in the US). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Usage So, really, "no one uses it"? Come on. > If we don't want to be "US-centric", we should determine the default > from the user's locale. I'm fine with that too, but I would point out that you already have a lot of people in the US that are pretty tired with the ridiculous locale en_US has adopted. But maybe that debate is better left to the locale settings and not here. I would also argue that switching to the user's locale is harder to do than just change the default to something that everyone will unambiguously understand, even, yes, US people that are hell bent on not adopting that standard. The point I was trying to make is the default is unreasonable, and that ISO would be a better default. But maybe that's too tough of a pill to swallow, still, after 30 years of ISO 8601 and even more decades of trying to internationalise software. a.