From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ihor Radchenko Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Telemetry, opt-in,opt-out [was: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove] Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2024 05:28:04 +0000 Message-ID: <87wmm9r5zv.fsf@localhost> References: <7133BE83-064B-43A4-A193-61376605222C@dancol.org> <055E6E92-6971-409E-A106-7E0C64FEF856@dancol.org> <87bk3r22x5.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12959"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: tomas@tuxteam.de, Daniel Colascione , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Jun 28 07:27:33 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sN48x-00036V-UI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2024 07:27:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sN488-0002qS-S2; Fri, 28 Jun 2024 01:26:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sN486-0002oT-Kg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2024 01:26:38 -0400 Original-Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sN483-0002cT-EQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2024 01:26:38 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29C04240027 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2024 07:26:31 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1719552392; bh=qhNxDNcO6Aw0ok/MT+pq/dNP38kKB3bgPwsBkyy33s4=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type: From; b=ZH8i3FigY9rr78Y8dEwb69iELK/faFut8wSL74+DxRwcxd39PPefFLhr0LIQcSsOe 2TmTpqaNpCpruqSW3sO+KmnXnxg/Oq0rMhBN0uLa+KoM7XSQtNhvd8dVKu8JDYNUQl 6+hLlilgmF09YtNDze2LV7xOkbVOzwXmZTdlnH04dwkNuUIN1I9wFPB0O7WxoCg5j5 KE67AUoy4vXKq8rSTUjEyjwNxlpX+gnI1qa4WR2vUZWzsjDb9E0fAlwA+EEuk+wB+S SOj1CfjXEyoLoMGsMPVKIC3jyv9HCO0TZO/DekR3lCQXPZfUUdOS/nSFmg3Ffs/LFZ DjgRgaU65AwAQ== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4W9P7C0Fldz6tvt; Fri, 28 Jun 2024 07:26:30 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=yantar92@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:320798 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier writes: >>> Opt-out collection of anonymous metrics has been an industry standard >>> for many years now. >> Whatever "industry standard" means. Industry standard is >> surveillance capitalism these days. Not something to strive >> for, not in free software's context, I think. > > Yup, I'd be happy to see some kind of statistics-gathering system > included in Emacs if it can help us decide how to evolve the projects > and its default settings, but it definitely needs to be opt-in: Emacs > should never contact a host without the user "explicitly" requesting it > (there's some wiggle room about what "explicitly" can mean, admittedly, > but in terms of sending telemetry it's pretty clear to me that it needs > to be opt-in). Note that I have done an opt-in statistics gathering in https://elpa.gnu.org/packages/emacs-gc-stats.html Here are some privacy-related things that have been considered: 1. opt-in only, and implemented as global minor mode, so that people can disable statistics gathering any time, and re-enable later 2. Data is in plain text format for easier review 3. Data is not sent automatically. Only user decides when to send it (several users asked for a reminder about sending though) A note: I did this via mailing list, so it was not exactly anonymous, but submissions may be made anonymous as well, with appropriate upload server like 0x0 or similar (but hosted by FSF). 4. What is recorded is documented. And can be customized. 5. Data recorded during current Emacs session can be discarded any time, with a command. I had no major complaints about privacy, except one instance of Emacs user whose employer had strict data sharing policy. Of course, that user did not have to opt in. (note that the package itself is rather data-agnostic and can be re-used to collect something else, not just GC statistics) -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at