From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philip Kaludercic Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Newbie Info Pages Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 18:26:13 +0000 Message-ID: <87wmjg4tkq.fsf@posteo.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38987"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Summer Emacs Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 12 20:26:55 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sooWs-0009x3-2S for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 12 Sep 2024 20:26:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sooWN-0002qm-Fs; Thu, 12 Sep 2024 14:26:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sooWM-0002qc-0S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Sep 2024 14:26:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sooWJ-0001Qo-Q9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Sep 2024 14:26:21 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 092A3240103 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2024 20:26:14 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1726165575; bh=/I6oCjfVrFl+D3x94BhzkEloAs8hSYImNJVyfE1ICXU=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:OpenPGP:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:From; b=WfYgsQ2J/CPUXIin+/dppqiir7xITAqXsW3naaEWR2jRWmEoAWar99+zhnupe4AfN VrXlxKXtUdlRoJIRdbQMaeczesbALkA/dvJ/23WjPGRz/EqAYF/tpPmbsvmUsUCSLc sGCJKMzXAAPCBZhkMFy4d1uExJma6JN4AgYyb865oxuqE1QsqbPx/gSjJpkfDbEA3U lA7qPqBpzpzWdJf+dm1CMp03LWgOKnwt9qIdYOmNJyGclgXFwXAw/pFQ8Ofuhz4vHH rD1i6PfsykIbnMXv3Ni5e6bXBsGpFt2EnxVrmh5jjDrBQQ1GnQukzkgvMO5eHfwfnM 8xiPE0CA/qw+g== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4X4Qqp1qhbz9rxF; Thu, 12 Sep 2024 20:26:14 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: (Summer Emacs's message of "Thu, 12 Sep 2024 19:30:57 +0200") Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; keydata= mDMEZBBQQhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAHJuofBrfqFh12uQu0Yi7mrl525F28eTmwUDflFNmdui0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwulikAEA77hloUiSrXgFkUVJhlKBpLCHUjA0 mWZ9j9w5d08+jVwBAK6c4iGP7j+/PhbkxaEKa4V3MzIl7zJkcNNjHCXmvFcEuDgEZBBQQhIKKwYB BAGXVQEFAQEHQI5NLiLRjZy3OfSt1dhCmFyn+fN/QKELUYQetiaoe+MMAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEE Dg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwukm+wEA8cml4JpK NeAu65rg+auKrPOP6TP/4YWRCTIvuYDm0joBALw98AMz7/qMHvSCeU/hw9PL6u6R2EScxtpKnWof z4oM OpenPGP: id=philipk@posteo.net; url="https://keys.openpgp.org/vks/v1/by-email/philipk@posteo.net"; preference=signencrypt Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:323563 Archived-At: Summer Emacs writes: > Hi everyone, > > I posted a question in Reddit this morning about having an Emacs > newbie info pages on the front of the default Emacs page for complete > newbies and first-timers. I know that the splash page already has > information links, which are very appreciated, but I think that first > time users would be overwhelmed with the information and how to use > it. The goal of this project would be the following: > > 1) A very visible (easy to see, and hard to miss) link at the top > which says something like =E2=80=9CNew to Emacs? Click here!=E2=80=9D > 2) A simple =E2=80=9Cone page=E2=80=9D info page with some general inform= ation about > Emacs and suggested setups. This would include: Any reason for it being a "one page" (i.e. one section) page? Why use Info, instead of a Help buffer? > > a) The link to the Emacs movement/editing tutorial (vital) and why it > is necessary to go through it. > b) A quick overview for non-coders/devs on how Emacs is special and > can be made to look like anything they want it to look like. > c) An explanation of how to configure Emacs in a basic way with a few > links to some suggested configs to get started =E2=80=9Cout of the box=E2= =80=9D (I > know this is contentious, please don=E2=80=99t bite my head off) I think mentioning common configuration patterns, that might include use-package, would be more useful than pointing people to personal configurations. > d) How they can download themes right away with some examples of some > basic themes and links to some popular theme packages. > e) An explanation of some bigger packages which they might be > interested in as non-coders (mostly writers or other office jobs) such > as: Org-Mode, EWS, Denote, Org-Roam, Fontaine, etc=E2=80=A6a quick explan= ation What is EWS? > of what each one does, a link to the page where the information can be > found. > f) How to use the configuration panels if they choose to go that route > with a few quick examples for them to try out. > > Now, a few things: > 1) I=E2=80=99m not a dev. This is just my take from a non-dev perspective. > 2) I=E2=80=99ve heard there was work on a wizard setup a while back but t= hat > it never went anywhere.=20 There was a discussion a few years back, because of which I wrote and continue to operate https://emacs.amodernist.com/? The people who know of it seem to like it. It is not inside Emacs, but it's a M-x eww away. > My suggestion is to use the info pages instead > of a wizard, but to make a newbie =E2=80=9Chome base=E2=80=9D for new use= rs which > won=E2=80=99t overwhelm them. I=E2=80=99ve already written about 3 pages = but it is > very rough and needs a lot of work, links put in, and a lot of editing > because my tone is very different from the tone of the manuals. I=E2=80= =99ve > never written a tutorial before, so I=E2=80=99m going to need some volunt= eers > to help me with some of this stuff. > 3) I don=E2=80=99t know what it takes to include such a thing into Emacs > proper. I don=E2=80=99t know how to patch things, or know what the specif= ics > are for submitting things in a proper way. Please don=E2=80=99t hold that > against me - I=E2=80=99m willing to learn. If you can write Elisp, you can try to prepare a package as an initial draft that we could first add to GNU ELPA, then move to the core when it is mature enough. Ping me if you have anything you want to submit. > I wanted to write this email to put something concrete down rather > than just say =E2=80=9CEmacs needs to be better for newbs=E2=80=9D and no= t do anything > about it. Somebody suggest that I actually do, so I=E2=80=99m going to tr= y. > > I also don=E2=80=99t know if long emails are verboten here, so please exc= use > the length of this email. I=E2=80=9Dm used to writing large business proj= ects > and proposals where a few pages in length isn=E2=80=99t really much of an > issue. This is certainly not the longest email I have seen here ^^ > The reason I=E2=80=99m doing this: > I love Emacs, but I=E2=80=99m a special case and I know it. It was a slee= pless > week of learning how computer hard drives and what a CLI was during > the lockdown of the pandemic eventually led me to Emacs. By then, I > wasn=E2=80=99t put off as much by the initial welcome screen., But I know= that > many others might be. I=E2=80=99m not suggesting we change the welcome sc= reen > because I know that=E2=80=99s an issue which causes fights and division i= n the > group - I=E2=80=99m just suggesting we have an area that is instantly > accessible to allow users to see something that Emacs *could* be if > they just learn a little bit. I hope that this is an acceptable and > practical suggestion which does not reach for the stars but is more > down to earth. > > Thank you everyone who made it through this lengthy Email and I look > forward to hearing from anyone with helpful suggestions, comments, > and/or help. > > Summer Emacs. --=20 Philip Kaludercic on siskin