From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode (was: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 13:40:14 +0900 Message-ID: <87vdcui6oh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87ocitw2dl.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <201003130001.o2D01FFQ003489@godzilla.ics.uci.edu> <87vdd1yqe4.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87eijjzrkd.fsf_-_@mail.jurta.org> <20100317143519.GB4381@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1268888787 7486 80.91.229.12 (18 Mar 2010 05:06:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:06:27 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Juri Linkov , Chong Yidong , Dan Nicolaescu , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Mar 18 06:06:20 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ns7vh-0007Rx-Io for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 06:06:09 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32861 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ns7vg-0000C0-RE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:05:56 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Ns7va-0000BF-H5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:05:50 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=41248 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ns7vX-00009g-KW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:05:48 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ns7vV-0000Ug-JH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:05:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mtps02.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:52650) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ns7vV-0000UB-1M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:05:45 -0400 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mtps02.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02D14820D; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 13:40:59 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 44DE21A3800; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 13:40:14 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <20100317143519.GB4381@muc.de> X-Mailer: VM 8.0.12-devo-585 under 21.5 (beta29) "garbanzo" a03421eb562b XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122136 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: > The answer is to ask them why they want this. C-w is easy to type, as is > . I can't speak for "them," but I want DEL to *delete* the region because *kill-region* is very often *not* what I want. Ie, I do not want the deleted text on the kill ring. It's also often useful to me to have the text being replaced on screen as I begin to type the replacement text, rather than delete and insert separately. These small differences really matter, a microsecond here, a half-second there, it starts to add up to a noticably smoother experience. > delete-select-mode is such an irritating distraction In Emacsen without zmacs-regions/transient-mark-mode on, I agree strongly. In Emacs with t-m-m, I disagree strongly. Yes, veteran users will find the change in defaults (both t-m-m and delsel, whether simultaneously or sequentially) an irritating distraction. There should be a way for veterans to tell Emacs "Read my lips: No New UI Features", but sadly enough, there isn't. But vets know how to turn off such annoyances quickly and permanently. > that it should only be enabled for those who really, truly want it. Which is almost everybody with either no experience or the leisure to spend a very frustrating 3 days (what it took me to adapt to zmacs-regions, 15 years ago) to 1 week retraining muscle memory. t-m-m + delsel is a simple, global improvement as a default *for the new user*. > Emacs isn't about taking things for granted. It's about > efficiency, about minimising keystrokes, about not getting in the > users' way. How about improving the documentation/menu-settings/ > whatever so that these beginners find what they're looking for? That's awfully selfish of you. You know how to find all this stuff, several different ways. The beginners aren't even aware that help can actually be helpful! (Have you ever been sentenced to trying to work on a Windows box's configuration or even the Un*x side of a Mac, with only the platform help as documentation? Please try it some time before you ask n00bs to rely on Emacs help -- there's nothing in their experience to even hint that something so useful is possible!) Emacs newbies are busy just getting used to fundamental differences that really matter (the ability to navigate by mark, useful and consistently accessible histories for almost all commands that take arguments, motion by semantic text units bigger than words, extreme customizability via minor modes as well as various options, ability to use the same editor and commands for tasks as disparate as reading netnews and cleaning up a directory full of junk files, ... and oh, yes, "online help" that's really help-full). Why not give them these very efficient patterns that have proven themselves not only in software for the braindead, but in daily usage by thousands of Emacs users as well? > No. We do not want to send Emacs down the slippery slope towards > lowest common denominator editors. We want to encourage Emacs > users to use Emacs efficiently, taking advantage of its many > features. Of which t-m-m plus delsel is one. I'm only sad that you aren't able to take advantage of it. :^)