From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode as default Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 23:59:52 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87va765tr3.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <83k1nxvm5j.fsf@gnu.org> <87sh2ih0bp.fsf@fastmail.fm> <770f48a8-664a-40ae-8e03-19f6aad248b6@default> <20180910181615.GA4829@ACM> <874lev3bq4.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20180912131602.GA5582@ACM> <87d0tihxzw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20180913174640.GB4019@ACM> <8736udkuit.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20180914104833.GA4103@ACM> <84ef5fa1-5adc-4832-b4f4-f115b9753b40@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1537051165 4058 195.159.176.226 (15 Sep 2018 22:39:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 22:39:25 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: spacibba@aol.com, Joost Kremers , Noam Postavsky , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Alan Mackenzie , Eli Zaretskii , phillip.lord@russet.org.uk To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 16 00:39:21 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g1JDk-0000uq-DO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 00:39:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56978 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g1JFq-0005Fs-HA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 18:41:30 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45757) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g1JDC-0003wR-Jz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 18:38:47 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g1JDB-00031c-Su for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 18:38:46 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p02-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5302::1]:16915) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g1JD4-0002px-7q; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 18:38:40 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1537051116; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=qgBZLTYVYUx0TkEHO37PEZFwogMl77f1hpsNe35Vf7E=; b=lBIuz4ebK7+b/JpZTVKzxYbyj04zL23eFyhHHQA979tMQvkr2xJEcYfrGzd1YWRNo8 1l1UhKicEXBne8OrzfGXYmd/TFeXlY5BalycTee1Fc9hzKA2TNiOYXLl2NN0y18AjyYO SayC8WejGdkDVr4U9jp3kCxUEx0VIZPPqRDMwWKUMCrxmPfw+ZAMJ7+GOUA4sFmBDGmi y3Cw3Pp4XTEr+dZBFFAthhhQSQGfar2Q/lIimKr8MSFRsrgoDIBMjoBBQnxgsX/jZFFQ 604KZCFeuv8BhqDWpq8lCeKD9Z6TK1PgQcRL8bho0hsP40MNdP5pxga3p7vvaDpdu9wa faSw== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.1 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id 20bdb7u8FMcI6D4 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Sun, 16 Sep 2018 00:38:18 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1g1JCj-0001Lg-LY; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 00:38:17 +0200 In-Reply-To: <84ef5fa1-5adc-4832-b4f4-f115b9753b40@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 14 Sep 2018 07:33:01 -0700 (PDT)") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5302::1 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229829 Archived-At: Drew Adams writes: > [...] > Hw (and others): The behavior that Alan is describing - the one > he chooses for Emacs, is the original Emacs region behavior. > It is not some crazy, odd, or dangerous thing. I know it's intended to be the way. Yet having a hidden region all the time always made me feel uneasy because it *is* dangerous to have a part of the buffer --- the extent of which is not really known and changes with every movement of point --- being always subject to commands that may delete it or do whatever with it when I happen to make a mistake. And I might not even realize having made the mistake because it all happens hidden. I remember when I learned about it, I immediately decided it's a very bad and dangerous thing to have and did my best to avoid it. So over the decades, I've become good at ignoring this stupid region thing and at not making mistakes that accidentally modify regions. That doesn't mean lurking hidden regions waiting for my mistakes are good, and it doesn't matter if that was the intended way. Not all of Emacs` ways are perfect, and this is a way I'd really like to see finally change. > It's a perfectly fine, efficient, and logical behavior. not to me And with evolutions like t-m-m and d-s-m it seems to have become more inconsistent, confusing and way too complicated. > [...] > I'd prefer that we turn > on `delete-selection-mode' by default, but it's apparently > already been decided (by RMS and Eli) that that won't > happen just yet. Not a big deal. Maybe it can happen once this mess has been cleaned up. > We might want to consider making more obvious some of > the main user choices regarding region, selection etc. I think > it's not obvious to users, especially new users, what choices > are available. I don't have a concrete suggestion of how we > might do that, but I think there's probably room for > improvement. > > The various variables, modes, etc. that control the behavior > are here and there, and their presentation in the docs is also > here and there. Depending on the choices you want, the > notion and behavior of the region can have to do with > cutting and pasting, navigation, acting on a stretch of text, > narrowing, highlighting, mouse selection, and other things. > [...] right an article and a tutorial