From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Sergey Organov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 12:10:25 +0300 Message-ID: <87v9kwi6ta.fsf@osv.gnss.ru> References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> <87pnb7sira.fsf@red-bean.com> <83zha8tluq.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="60327"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: rms@gnu.org, andreas.roehler@online.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org, kfogel@red-bean.com, Tak Kunihiro , tkk@misasa.okayama-u.ac.jp To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 16 11:11:05 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jZsqX-000Fbw-3A for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 16 May 2020 11:11:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47452 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZsqW-0002Rq-3T for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 16 May 2020 05:11:04 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56820) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZsq0-0001zi-U2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 16 May 2020 05:10:32 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]:46640) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZspz-0008Dz-De; Sat, 16 May 2020 05:10:32 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id v5so3793883lfp.13; Sat, 16 May 2020 02:10:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=eAOm3NfUc72SK8ush+DuQWS42xK/PEKUW2Sv5dQdzqM=; b=DuRLOnpq9+ZeATtUPSS6R+GUWTyjB6HOeQucHkEvh/J028kY/pPCLyVE/Ces8C78ZT 3DQwhW3aICBZCLnEWEypG6XsLKj8qEF/svbfbSsARAaLaVPuUiVPllHRiLkScREtofLU kCf42yoVXOf3OAcZmrUuZjsdPO9Rs8+nvNf9M+ejaMN4bYRXGCIbT0inROrPvuWAowP4 GPDgeznK1qfRj1afqkijIVKYXGg8ZgfHUhd9Sc32QGTqbmF9fT/WhZaw1K0i/93EtFxc 9Oxy3va8lpOoES2n8rODGbDVbygEvdwF3y7xxmH4Df9RypGhG87TRmPB+BwzwD1cGd0x jaOQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=eAOm3NfUc72SK8ush+DuQWS42xK/PEKUW2Sv5dQdzqM=; b=t5WIl/iHbIAlynI13XUWcXk++fHbCXPV5+TdY5vzdGmzigE88ahMe3je6ay10W0/Df 257pSzH5QeH5fjljMRXq97pyCwauOcQPngrslFFU+NWKDFbt9Ii0fo4HEdD2eB/x8xJs NQHcjNh5J/b2EOvsmjK1nxkhivqX52vs0iG9DX4/CWOSQGfMbKQWCgxzUzFaQtDnx/C5 YQhWprgffZwAiKSNgeCyeJmaS8VSR0RoIoSbAiTzjSqXjvTWU67A878kx4UqjDHlktC7 m7Fcg6UMAtdGMAUiRDTDRWtts+utvuo3dwkCqBcd9wTDwOjszHChBy8dY1wZIBZC0JYt b11Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531LSfqW/C6SIjcQz1H/juAC69STUwRiodh+TgQnGW37q1wIJ/OK qBdh0XwtRK8HQLbSCccXoni+Pa5w X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyxk7HCcFYx8SguGtt/yKEbflCj+DY30ndPZNrgAmKesrxJ2hxdxXUyHBGEWO8qiUFkl/aOeg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3ea:: with SMTP id n10mr5220688lfq.127.1589620227151; Sat, 16 May 2020 02:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from osv.localdomain ([89.175.180.246]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f24sm3221773lfk.36.2020.05.16.02.10.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 16 May 2020 02:10:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83zha8tluq.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 16 May 2020 09:50:05 +0300") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12a; envelope-from=sorganov@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x12a.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250465 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Tak Kunihiro >> Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 09:56:30 +0900 >> Cc: Karl Fogel , tkk@misasa.okayama-u.ac.jp, >> andreas.roehler@online.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> > We made this very simple a few years ago: Just keep typing C-g. >> > I guess these users don't know that. >> > >> > Can anyone thing of a better way to teach them about this? >> >> How about to click somewhere in main-buffer area to get him out of the >> state and say `type C-g next time'? > > That would disable a very useful feature, whereby clicking somewhere > else leaves the minibuffer active and allows you to do something else > temporarily. And here there are 2 more problems for newbies. They usually expect pop-up /modal/ dialog to be thrown on them for anything but text input or moving around. So, first, they miss minibuffer prompts entirely, and then get to recursive editing all the time, unintentionally. I'm not sure if it makes sense to implement "pop-up dialog minibuffer" mode for newbies though, and then if it makes sense to (optionally?) make it modal. Yet another way to help would be making minibuffer modal by default. -- Sergey