From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Akib Azmain Turja Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs packages, GitHub and software freedom Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2022 22:17:37 +0600 Message-ID: <87v8sa2p26.fsf@disroot.org> References: <875yka4b91.fsf@disroot.org> <87y1x62vic.fsf@rabkins.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="18653"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: Bozhidar Batsov , Emacs Devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 06 18:20:42 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1o97la-0004g9-00 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 18:20:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53338 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o97lY-00018Q-EC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 12:20:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43712) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o97k3-0000Pe-QH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 12:19:07 -0400 Original-Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([178.21.23.139]:60346) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o97k1-0001yf-Jm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 12:19:07 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by disroot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60AAC43C9B; Wed, 6 Jul 2022 18:19:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: SPAM Filter at disroot.org Original-Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (disroot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with UTF8SMTP id X81s0RhNsfn8; Wed, 6 Jul 2022 18:18:59 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=disroot.org; s=mail; t=1657124269; bh=feNK6kd6T5Txoi5LEbVZHjVR+jPMu/j+59sVocTIEsI=; h=From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=i8MCTmrKa1XSFRiOQ1Pr7laZETAKFavRfTvdz8A02FLHn6WHbCunN+N0NtXEF61Zj Uwi2CLE1ifVrqVV5/2ZaRv4DDEugmDWbwJ0gLV//sgU/5UC2hBAy+4bA15gNoUZT2v kLZZwTbo3d9u36Ya0dSCdrEL9huc6ijBWRADJyp0AHZBsH7Ih+N8nEkolqHL3lxONM ioVY+9CJq4D+gtU+2534vLlZz27SXNyoz7H6x2Ff77Tj2+6kWZr8Crua4v6B7B95j0 iEQ1JdYoL53Op80e3I2iZMSwsZH8u9Kx+CcZIfgTpxHR0nNlZhj7O6jL7DVjUsddvv nVv/rJTVzvLGw== In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=178.21.23.139; envelope-from=akib@disroot.org; helo=knopi.disroot.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:291906 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Bozhidar Batsov" writes: > I think that's a very binary view of GitHub - it might be non-free, > but given the huge community it has amassed, it's almost suicidal for > projects to leave it, as they'd be reducing their contributor-base > significantly. Projects that are hosted outside of GitHub get way > less contributions and I don't think the Emacs users would benefit > from this. I know that the people in FSF care a lot about freedom, but > I care more about building the best Emacs packages possible, even I > have to make some ideological compromises from time to time. This looks similar to saying, "It's suicidal to not use Copilot, because without it you have to do the programming yourself and decrease your productivity." Emacs, GCC, Guix, EMMS and many other projects use Savannah, and there's thousands of other popular projects, including some of the most successful ones, that are not using GitHub. Are they falling behind? Your statement is contradicting your own blog post: "Firefox is the Only Alternative".[1] However, I must agree that projects on GitHub gets more activity. But that's because most of the developers use (i.e. used by) that. And that's why more people join GitHub, they are forced. We must break this cycle. > Love it or hate it, GitHub helped a lot for the revival of the Emacs > package ecosystem. Especially when you compare this to the days of > EmacsWiki and SourceForge. Just like saying, "Windows has made using a computer easy, so I won't discourage people from using it." > I wouldn't take any steps to discourage package maintainers from > using it. This way you are just worsening the situation. (But you obviously have the freedom to do that.) To increase the "contributor-base" outside GitHub, we have to convince maintainers to move away from GitHub. Footnotes: [1] https://batsov.com/articles/2021/11/28/firefox-is-the-only-alternative/ =2D-=20 Akib Azmain Turja This message is signed by me with my GnuPG key. 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