Question about cite_export basic

Question about cite_export basic

[Dominik Schrempf]

Hello!

When using the basic org cite export processor, that is:

#+cite_export: basic

bibliography items with curly braces are rendered in an unexpected way.

For example,

@InCollection{Geyer2011,
  author          = {Geyer, Charles J},
  title           = {{Introduction to Markov Chain Monte Carlo}},
  year            = 2011,
  booktitle       = {{Handbook of Markov Chain Monte Carlo}},
  editor          = {Brooks, Steve and Gelman, Andrew and Jones, Galin and Meng,
                  Xiao-Li},
  publisher       = {CRC press},
  pages           = 45,
}

Is rendered as

Geyer, Charles J (2011). {Introduction to Markov Chain Monte Carlo}, CRC press.

In particular, the curly braces are printed. Curly braces are often
used in bib files to indicate that the capitalization is to be
preserved.

Do we want to change the default behavior of the basic processor so
that it correctly handles these cases?

Thanks,
Dominik

Re: Question about cite_export basic

[Alain.Cochard]

Dominik Schrempf writes on Fri  9 Sep 2022 11:08:
 > Hello!
 > 
 > When using the basic org cite export processor, that is:
 > 
 > #+cite_export: basic
 > 
 > bibliography items with curly braces are rendered in an unexpected way.
 >
 > [...]
 > 
 > In particular, the curly braces are printed.

I don't observe that.  I even used your Geyer2011 example:

#+bibliography: ~/Ref/coch.bib
[cite:@Geyer2011]
#+print_bibliography:

Org mode version 9.5.4 (9.5.4-ge0b05b @ /home/cochard/.emacs.d/elpa/org-9.5.4/)

-- 
EOST (École et Observatoire des Sciences de la Terre) 
ITE (Institut Terre & Environnement) | alain.cochard@unistra.fr
5 rue René Descartes   [bureau 106]  | Phone: +33 (0)3 68 85 50 44 
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Re: Question about cite_export basic

[Ihor Radchenko]

Alain.Cochard@unistra.fr writes:

>  > In particular, the curly braces are printed.
>
> I don't observe that.  I even used your Geyer2011 example:
>
> #+bibliography: ~/Ref/coch.bib
> [cite:@Geyer2011]
> #+print_bibliography:
>
> Org mode version 9.5.4 (9.5.4-ge0b05b @ /home/cochard/.emacs.d/elpa/org-9.5.4/)

This is confusing. I actually can reproduce. I used the same Org file
and a bib file containing the only record - Geyer2011.

I did export using C-c C-e t A (ASCII to buffer) and I got the
following:

------------------------------------
Ihor Radchenko


Table of Contents
_________________




(Geyer, Charles J, 2011)
Geyer, Charles J (2011). /{Introduction to Markov Chain Monte Carlo}/,
CRC press.
------------------------------------

Note the curly brackets.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: Question about cite_export basic

[Alain.Cochard]

Ihor Radchenko writes on Fri  9 Sep 2022 18:38:

 > This is confusing. I actually can reproduce.
 > [...]
 > I did export using C-c C-e t A (ASCII to buffer)

Sorry, it did not occur to me that there is a life out of latex
export.  I used C-c C-e l o.  I can also reproduce with C-c C-e t A.

-- 
EOST (École et Observatoire des Sciences de la Terre) 
ITE (Institut Terre & Environnement) | alain.cochard@unistra.fr
5 rue René Descartes   [bureau 106]  | Phone: +33 (0)3 68 85 50 44 
F-67084 Strasbourg Cedex, France     | [ slot available for rent ]

Re: Question about cite_export basic

[Ihor Radchenko]

Dominik Schrempf <dominik.schrempf@gmail.com> writes:

>   title           = {{Introduction to Markov Chain Monte Carlo}},
> ...
> Is rendered as
>
> Geyer, Charles J (2011). {Introduction to Markov Chain Monte Carlo}, CRC press.
>
> In particular, the curly braces are printed. Curly braces are often
> used in bib files to indicate that the capitalization is to be
> preserved.
>
> Do we want to change the default behavior of the basic processor so
> that it correctly handles these cases?

This makes sense. However, I see it as something to be done by
bibtex.el; not by Org. Or we may need to write a small exporter for
BibTeX fields specifically. So that
http://www.bibtex.org/SpecialSymbols/ is obeyed. We may also handle
upcasing the title words in such exporter.

For now, I reached Emacs devs asking to provide the parsing within
bibtex.el. See https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=57712
Lets see what they reply first.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: Question about cite_export basic

[Dominik Schrempf]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Dominik Schrempf <dominik.schrempf@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>   title           = {{Introduction to Markov Chain Monte Carlo}},
>> ...
>> Is rendered as
>>
>> Geyer, Charles J (2011). {Introduction to Markov Chain Monte Carlo}, CRC press.
>>
>> In particular, the curly braces are printed. Curly braces are often
>> used in bib files to indicate that the capitalization is to be
>> preserved.
>>
>> Do we want to change the default behavior of the basic processor so
>> that it correctly handles these cases?
>
> This makes sense. However, I see it as something to be done by
> bibtex.el; not by Org. Or we may need to write a small exporter for
> BibTeX fields specifically. So that
> http://www.bibtex.org/SpecialSymbols/ is obeyed. We may also handle
> upcasing the title words in such exporter.
>
> For now, I reached Emacs devs asking to provide the parsing within
> bibtex.el. See https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=57712
> Lets see what they reply first.
>

Dear Ihor!

Thank you for posting the BibTeX brace problem upstream. From what I can
see by reading through the conversation, we are going down a rabbit
hole. It seems to be pretty difficult to convert a BibTeX entry to a
proper ascii string (I think this is what the basic export processor is
doing). Is that true?

Not sure how to proceed. I do not think that post processing
`bibtex-parse-entry` output which seems to contain LaTeX code makes
sense.

Best,
Dominik

Re: Question about cite_export basic

[Ihor Radchenko]

Dominik Schrempf <dominik.schrempf@gmail.com> writes:

>> For now, I reached Emacs devs asking to provide the parsing within
>> bibtex.el. See https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=57712
>> Lets see what they reply first.
>>
>
> Dear Ihor!
>
> Thank you for posting the BibTeX brace problem upstream. From what I can
> see by reading through the conversation, we are going down a rabbit
> hole. It seems to be pretty difficult to convert a BibTeX entry to a
> proper ascii string (I think this is what the basic export processor is
> doing). Is that true?
>
> Not sure how to proceed. I do not think that post processing
> `bibtex-parse-entry` output which seems to contain LaTeX code makes
> sense.

Parsing itself is not that hard, actually. We just need to follow
http://www.bibtex.org/SpecialSymbols/. However, it will be better if the
parsing is done on bibtex.el side.

If bibtex.el maintainer refuses to implement the request, we will just
do the parsing on Org side.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: Question about cite_export basic

[Ihor Radchenko]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Parsing itself is not that hard, actually. We just need to follow
> http://www.bibtex.org/SpecialSymbols/. However, it will be better if the
> parsing is done on bibtex.el side.

Not so easy. http://www.bibtex.org/SpecialSymbols/ is not accurate and
there is no formal (and full) description of Bibtex format anywhere.

> If bibtex.el maintainer refuses to implement the request, we will just
> do the parsing on Org side.

bibitex.el maintainer don't think that fine parsing is within bibtex.el
scope.
I implemented an approximate parser on Org side instead.

Fixed, on main.
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/commit/?id=d2df9624c

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>