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From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net>
To: Christian Moe <mail@christianmoe.com>
Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: POSIX TS spec reverses the meaning of TZ offset compared to ISO (was: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda))
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2023 13:26:36 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87v8kljz3n.fsf@localhost> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87o7qdsf7h.fsf@christianmoe.com>

[ adding Org ML back to CC ]

Christian Moe <mail@christianmoe.com> writes:

>> Note, however, that because we are conforming to POSIX TZ, @UTC+2 is two
>> hours _behind_ the Greenwich.
>
> Ouch.

This is probably something we need to discuss further.

Dear All,

There is potential confusion coming from the different interpretations
of the time zone offsets used in ISO8601 and POSIX TZ specs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Time_zone_designators:

    Negative UTC offsets describe a time zone west of UTC±00:00, where
    the civil time is behind (or earlier) than UTC so the zone
    designator will look like "−03:00","−0300", or "−03".

https://www.di-mgt.com.au/wclock/help/wclo_tzexplain.html:    

    [Asia/Beijing]
    TZ=CST-8

    Minutes and seconds are optional, so CST-8 and CST-08:00:00 mean the
    same thing. Note that the sign convention (+/-) used in a Posix TZ
    string is the opposite to that used in Internet time offsets (RFC
    3339) and in Arthur David Olson's TZ data files.

So, the equivalent time zone offsets in, say, Singapore will be:

[2023-02-01 12:00 @Asia/Singapore]
[2023-02-01 12:00+08] ;; local time 8 hours earlier than UTC as in ISO8601 spec
[2023-02-01 12:00 @UTC-08] ;; UTC is 8 hours earlier than local time as in POSIX TZ spec

This is potentially confusing.

We may, in theory, reverse the meaning of @UTC[+-]NN manually, but then
values like @EST+5 will remain reversed, again creating the confusion.
Or, if we reverse everything in @..., users more familiar with POSIX TZ
will get confused.

Any ideas?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>


  parent reply	other threads:[~2023-02-01 13:30 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 328+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-01-13  8:56 [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Daryl Manning
2023-01-13 12:51 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14  6:27   ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-14 12:46     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-14 11:18   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 11:26     ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-14 11:42       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15  5:11         ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-15 13:41           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 16:43             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-16 18:37               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17 17:40                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-18  9:59                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 16:25                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18 16:24                   ` [SOLUTION] " Jean Louis
2023-01-20 10:57         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-20 11:29           ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-20 11:36             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-20 15:10               ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-20 11:39             ` Fraga, Eric
2023-01-20 11:48               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-21 12:55                 ` Jean Louis
2023-01-21 13:41                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-21  9:21               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-21 10:14                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-22 11:49                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-20 22:51             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14 13:03     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14 13:22       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15 19:10         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 11:21           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 11:30             ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-16 11:39               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 15:43                 ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-16 19:07                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 19:22                     ` Robert Horn
2023-01-16 19:41                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 20:47                         ` Robert Horn
2023-01-16 21:02                           ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-16 21:48                             ` Robert Horn
2023-01-17  8:53                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17  3:55                           ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-17  8:22                             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-17  9:15                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17  9:45                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-18  9:15                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 11:43                                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-18 12:02                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 21:16                                         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-19  5:29                                           ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19  6:25                                             ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-19 14:17                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19 15:55                                                 ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-21 13:10                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-21 16:23                                                     ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-21 13:50                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-21 14:31                                                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-21 16:55                                                     ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-19  7:23                                             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-19 14:32                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19 20:09                                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-19 23:02                                                   ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-19 23:51                                                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20  0:24                                                       ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-20  3:46                                                         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20  6:14                                                           ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-27  6:06                                                             ` Sterling Hooten
2023-01-27  6:09                                                               ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-27  9:54                                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-01-27 21:04                                                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-29  4:09                                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-29  6:21                                                                     ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-29  6:46                                                                       ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-29 14:10                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-30 19:37                                                                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-31  0:53                                                                         ` Thomas S. Dye
     [not found]                                                                         ` <0597910b-9b01-3c0c-5d06-da171e0de4cd@gmx.at>
2023-01-31  6:08                                                                           ` Jean Louis
2023-01-29  6:31                                                                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-30 20:36                                                                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-30 20:38                                                                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-29 20:26                                                                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-30 20:55                                                                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-30 21:54                                                                         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-31  7:04                                                                           ` Jean Louis
2023-01-31  8:14                                                                             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-31 13:02                                                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-01-27 11:09                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-27 12:49                                                                 ` Sterling Hooten
2023-01-27 13:00                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-27 15:03                                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-30 13:08                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-27 20:58                                                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-30 11:25                                                                 ` Greg Minshall
2023-01-31 11:48                                                                   ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-31 12:19                                                                     ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-31 12:41                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
     [not found]                                                                         ` <CAL9aZksf8AGF=dXg0KAtLPyu1ATt1fLpvdsjN6GMCuK2KRQ56w@mail.gmail.com>
2023-01-31 13:33                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-31 13:22                                                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-31 13:46                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-31 19:59                                                                         ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01 12:42                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 15:28                                                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01 16:30                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-31 20:12                                                                         ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01  5:46                                                                           ` tomas
2023-02-01  7:29                                                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01  7:52                                                                             ` Tim Cross
2023-02-01  8:32                                                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01  8:46                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01  9:38                                                                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-02-01 10:15                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 14:53                                                                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01 16:36                                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 10:46                                                                                   ` Max Nikulin
2023-02-01 14:43                                                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01 16:45                                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02  3:05                                                                                       ` Max Nikulin
2023-02-02  8:59                                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01  9:40                                                                                 ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info Stefan Nobis
2023-02-01  9:45                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 14:38                                                                                 ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Jean Louis
2023-02-01 16:50                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-03 15:48                                                                                   ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info Stefan Nobis
2023-02-04  5:07                                                                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01  9:06                                                                             ` Stefan Nobis
2023-02-01  9:20                                                                               ` tomas
2023-02-01  9:48                                                                                 ` Stefan Nobis
2023-10-29  1:04                                                                                 ` Jean Louis
2023-02-06 15:34                                                                                   ` Marcin Borkowski
2023-02-06 17:03                                                                                     ` tomas
2023-02-07 21:08                                                                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-10-29  1:02                                                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01  7:00                                                                           ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Thomas S. Dye
2023-02-01  7:41                                                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-31 17:56                                                                     ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info Fraga, Eric
2023-01-31 18:13                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-31 18:22                                                                         ` Fraga, Eric
2023-01-31 18:56                                                                     ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Greg Minshall
2023-02-01 12:48                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 12:52                                                                         ` tomas
2023-02-02  4:49                                                                           ` Greg Minshall
2023-01-31 20:41                                                                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-31 23:50                                                                     ` Samuel Wales
2023-02-01 13:01                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-04 22:33                                                                         ` Samuel Wales
2023-02-04 22:49                                                                           ` Samuel Wales
2023-02-05 10:38                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 11:56                                                                     ` Christian Moe
2023-02-01 12:20                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
     [not found]                                                                         ` <87o7qdsf7h.fsf@christianmoe.com>
2023-02-01 13:26                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko [this message]
2023-02-01 13:51                                                                             ` POSIX TS spec reverses the meaning of TZ offset compared to ISO (was: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda)) tomas
2023-02-01 21:57                                                                               ` POSIX TS spec reverses the meaning of TZ offset compared to ISO (was: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info Heinz Tuechler
2023-02-01 22:50                                                                                 ` Samuel Wales
2023-02-02  9:01                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02  3:22                                                                                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-02-02  7:45                                                                                   ` POSIX TS spec reverses the meaning of TZ offset compared to ISO Heinz Tuechler
2023-02-02  8:33                                                                                     ` tomas
2023-02-02  9:37                                                                                       ` Heinz Tuechler
2023-02-04 15:44                                                                                         ` Max Nikulin
2023-02-02  5:35                                                                                 ` POSIX TS spec reverses the meaning of TZ offset compared to ISO (was: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info tomas
2023-02-02  8:56                                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 15:16                                                                             ` POSIX TS spec reverses the meaning of TZ offset compared to ISO (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Max Nikulin
2023-02-02  8:34                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02 13:59                                                                                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-02-02 14:06                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 15:41                                                                         ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info " Jean Louis
2023-02-02  8:38                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-03 11:31                                                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-02-04 10:58                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-04 19:32                                                                                 ` Jean Louis
2023-02-05  9:14                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02  3:46                                                                     ` Timothy
2023-02-02  9:12                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02  9:12                                                                         ` Timothy
2023-02-02  9:20                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02  9:27                                                                             ` Timothy
2023-02-02  9:38                                                                         ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info Stefan Nobis
2023-01-30 12:30                                                               ` [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-30 15:30                                                                 ` Greg Minshall
2023-01-30 15:38                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-30 15:48                                                                     ` Greg Minshall
2023-01-20  4:03                                                   ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20  5:39                                                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20  7:28                                                       ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20  8:11                                                         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20 15:29                                                           ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20 22:56                                                             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20  9:35                                                       ` Fraga, Eric
2023-01-20 10:48                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-20  6:46                                                     ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-20  7:34                                                       ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20  8:17                                                       ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20 12:17                                                         ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20 16:09                                                           ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-20 16:56                                                             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20 20:37                                                               ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-21  0:14                                                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-21  0:37                                                                   ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-21  5:53                                                                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-21 15:55                                                                       ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-22 12:14                                                                         ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-22 13:35                                                                           ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-22 14:09                                                                           ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20 23:38                                                           ` Tim Cross
2023-01-21  6:21                                                             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-21 21:29                                                               ` Tim Cross
2023-01-22  5:50                                                                 ` UTC or not UTC for timestamps in the past ([FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode) Max Nikulin
2023-01-22  6:17                                                                   ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-22  8:35                                                                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-22 16:54                                                                       ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-23  6:28                                                                         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-23 16:04                                                                           ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-24  2:34                                                                             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-24  2:44                                                                               ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-24  4:48                                                                                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-24 19:18                                                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-24  9:34                                                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-24 16:41                                                                               ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-26 15:37                                                                             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-26 16:31                                                                               ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-27 21:21                                                                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-22  7:48                                                                   ` Tim Cross
2023-01-24 17:09                                                                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-24 19:20                                                                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-24 20:50                                                                       ` Tim Cross
2023-01-19 10:35                                           ` [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-19 17:57                                           ` Alexander Adolf
2023-01-21 13:51                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18 17:09                                   ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-17  8:45                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-19 16:56                             ` Robert Horn
2023-01-19 17:44                           ` Alexander Adolf
2023-01-19 17:48                           ` Alexander Adolf
2023-01-17 15:37                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18  9:29                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 16:11                         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18 21:31                         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-19 10:40                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17 17:28                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-17 19:49                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 16:21                         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18 16:20                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-20 16:27                         ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-19 17:33                   ` Alexander Adolf
2023-01-16 20:25               ` Tim Cross
2023-01-17  9:07                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17 15:24             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18  9:34               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 16:07                 ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19 10:43                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-19 14:37                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-15 20:43         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 11:25           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17 15:19             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18  9:38               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16  5:01     ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-16 12:31       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 20:32         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-16 20:51           ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-17  9:12             ` [FR] Allow BC years in timestamps (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-13 19:06 ` [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Jean Louis
2023-01-14  7:12   ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-14  9:32     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14 11:08       ` Russell Adams
2023-01-14 11:35         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 12:00           ` Russell Adams
2023-01-14 12:16             ` [FR] Allow end date and max repeat count for timestamps with repeaters (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15  1:09               ` Samuel Wales
2023-01-15 13:45                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15 23:49                   ` Samuel Wales
2023-01-15 23:53                     ` Samuel Wales
2023-01-16 13:01                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 12:19             ` [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 12:21               ` Russell Adams
2023-01-14 12:31                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 11:30       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 14:09         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14 14:38           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 14:48             ` tomas
2023-01-14 15:05               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 16:50                 ` tomas
2023-01-14 17:06                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 17:13                     ` tomas
2023-01-15 19:54                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-14 21:52                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-15 13:52                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-20 14:34                         ` Alexander Adolf
2023-01-15 20:03                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-15 19:52                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 13:11                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 20:56                   ` Tim Cross
2023-01-15 20:24                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-15  4:37                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-15  5:03                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-15 20:28                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 13:17                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 11:55       ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-14 13:50         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14 16:50           ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-14 20:30             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-15  4:00               ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-15  7:53                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-15 19:26                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 13:20                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15 14:00                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 13:08     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-14 16:58       ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-14 19:43         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-15  6:37           ` tomas
2023-01-15 14:07           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15 20:43             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-16  5:20               ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-16 13:29                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 17:30                   ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-16 17:53                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 13:27               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15 19:14           ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16  4:20             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-15 19:12         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-14  5:14 ` Samuel Wales
2023-01-14  5:51   ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-14  6:40     ` tomas
2023-01-26 15:24     ` Org mode timestamps on the Moon ;] (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-26 16:08       ` Org mode timestamps on the Moon ;] Fraga, Eric
2023-01-26 16:28         ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-26 23:40       ` Org mode timestamps on the Moon ;] (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Tom Gillespie
2023-01-30 10:13         ` Org mode timestamps on the Moon ; ] " Greg Minshall
2023-01-30 13:05         ` Org mode timestamps on the Moon ;] " Ihor Radchenko

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