From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2024 21:53:20 +0800 Message-ID: <87v81vx12n.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <7133BE83-064B-43A4-A193-61376605222C@dancol.org> <055E6E92-6971-409E-A106-7E0C64FEF856@dancol.org> <87bk3r22x5.fsf@yahoo.com> <746FE961-37C5-4387-8274-7D90908EE2D6@dancol.org> <8734p3219c.fsf@yahoo.com> <867cefeo1w.fsf@gnu.org> <8734p03e94.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <867cec9ccl.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="13866"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Jeremy Bryant , acm@muc.de, stefankangas@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Daniel Colascione Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 26 15:54:44 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sMT6h-0003P6-Jj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 15:54:43 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sMT67-0007ep-4R; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 09:54:07 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sMT62-0007eF-2v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 09:54:02 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic301-31.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.184.200]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sMT60-0001Nb-Ed for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 09:54:01 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1719410038; bh=iUBmFpCYk7/3MELy/4OoR8IC65qIhvXt/9edtF8rajE=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=ca0fLUl2UMdgcOYvoUFQSGqr8TkM7o6QYdA4XACxyAVdG9KinNyQngJtxgkaN/u2pUWIQjE7bkMPw/9RdmvvC933T8olWAa7mNt5q0Kr5j80A+1l6zjBmk00f+P3uLa6Wm6OPTTNxW6Qb3lOsbGguY8kMx+jZy3NU4IYSZqjilNcjf1LUxKoVFmJIek0BAuQMaByWYZamyf6+3XjSlbA/9K/59SIjdEm/Xj5iglIj9/uNT0/htk6aGZPUpMJutTbTMQ8fcOJXhpJVpy9PyOE7vRO/GYzC6qbTUfXwNFNPY0/hmchi8i5qmLuOlmBRjcBouBGoOjGt9TMhKIfzvUNBw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1719410038; bh=mdllOxDS6+DpeoLDLq6oV9TkRjTeLi0O/VS08lsuzcT=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=ZqjyUCGCgoUFKYzIDHaDSx+nh/YEkslV7sI6aoAGHZbbz2wonKtAHR+0P/toL7ZOfURU6RcuHTTYfHH7dSa3M933paksphjzGkvCqKooh9xYsQJj1ClV4kGlVjMj0PWzfPCUr4CEsdfysSSchjlA1ZfHeQaSH5qFsaDB9pFxzvVT3xA8Zv7bfkabzkB0fDIXZ4Od6jdrgE/Us7wTSzoceVb5LS25+dEDaGZ7u037Psafilc0RJq3RYcxsq+QhqKIoDmJ8ubs541jsnHSKHgTOiUrgoocdmLokt47nVjXU6Y9fs/QmuqthVq3b9lkbbgZ5QdLiQe3nz1f7mo0KV0mcQ== X-YMail-OSG: dilGWqMVM1mxUFJqimSPZ09I8cS5f3FtwRH76527P7QdgPd.jfhvy_c2b5nFmcc WCIV7DOXd6Mb3WZvTJlsdD66KvgafJZUMj9oqdbi0OY1XoOM_pGKIwsomzvPA0H9QSudoAtnercE _CZ.qVmbWx3QwXAzOFkxI8r7QqoOJnELTM5poMoDr0s_s62JH3RZnofy1fdnlZs.Xt9fk3fkUxPJ bhRIjvNgw7sueMjI1dGFQYv3KqAilhfpygDANeVTy_5bG7uI.j0iN36rGFqrvEPDRQpBbLxx1T2M AEOJaUfdkY5ObmJoZPMvmveFgqzEVYaEC0IteAePlwr2OrNS903DP02.2KgUz09LvhyfF.E2J524 vCDnkjXejV23YBauHOUog5aSV1bQsfO2eMuXo5uNg9QgOv92RtlSnlk7TY.P3RgsB5K.UJGmcCdX zzdZZdVfg_TYRz2yPcA0AA1KqRGjnmiTWSNPjVcRiuIVyq9GH1Ed2bVaNCuM2LAc6EHMoW4vg49h AzH3kZBbXCm2neJYm4CFhO9DwkE9kMEBsoW2_JnkfqNjgcU_Oncac95bNv56lvnZ3jHXllV3x0EL eUTAvTINeC5wCWfONX9u2lhC9z6zYKL.ydCB5ln61PcQeSt.w3tITvW.ueHDgFVRgm1ulpOpYgd5 oRvwXDuGhfTxD2RIezw.EAQCw2zzd9He9t_frmtCrE904uiTNA7slQDyXlrmfl9jinc3Fxm8EZTj 2fAhdz3026l7yWokhZx9_zaN7o6QPHYOImA035IC1U8wUlU4SF.JkDyDfKF8gCxiN6exDYWXNscj 93js_P6OUEtCIuZHP9iWtjTQoQBHN3ly9sdSuiJ8O_ X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 6dbe6b18-400f-4073-ab0d-33c94325e350 Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 13:53:58 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-7b469d9f6-k6vt4 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 10ef6e552388d3cdb0957afb9408af0e; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 13:53:53 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (Daniel Colascione's message of "Wed, 26 Jun 2024 07:44:19 -0400") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.22407 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.184.200; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic301-31.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:320689 Archived-At: Daniel Colascione writes: > On June 26, 2024 7:23:38 AM EDT, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >>> From: Jeremy Bryant >>> Cc: Po Lu , dancol@dancol.org, acm@muc.de, >>> stefankangas@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org >>> Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2024 22:26:47 +0100 >>> >>> 1. >>> I also find that C-x 4 is indeed logical, which makes it easier to remember >>> >>> 2. >>> C-x 4 .. works on the terminal/console. This is important for >>> preserving functionality of Emacs. >> >>I still hope that someone will tell what is exactly the request here, >>given that windmove-mode is on by default and its commands are >>autoloaded. > > To be clear, my proposal is to bind C-x 4 in the default > global keymap to the corresponding directional windmove commands and > to bind the shifted versions of these keys to the state swapping > versions of these movement commands. IOW, in emacs -Q, C-x 4 LEFT > should move left. C-x 4 is not for window management commands, but for commands that influence which window the results of a future command are to be displayed in, and it has been so for a substantial period, so that users won't bat an eyelid before creating bindings keeping to this pattern. As such, it is perfectly logical to bind, say, ffap-other-window, in this keymap, but not every command that marginally relates to window management. Windmove is not so important as ffap, to judge by the number of instances of each in the archives of help-gnu-emacs, and therefore default keybindings for its commands can only be less justified. If they were, there could also easily be a place for them far more rational and less disruptive than C-x 4. Extending the domain of existing keymaps is, whatever you think, a source of variance between the expectations of old and new users, and deprives users of room for custom keybindings, again, since they experience a natural reluctance to contradict the judgement of their superiors, expressed in the defaults they decide, so that the obligation of exercising this privilege wisely and sparingly devolves on _ourselves_, who should constantly be at pains to earn and deserve this respect. With all due respect, you are just one user, and though many have concurred with your choice, yet none of them have previously created the same set of bindings as yours. This implies that the question of establishing default bindings for Windmove, and more so your preferences for these bindings, was profoundly uninteresting to everyone but yourself, and should not even have been raised until it had attracted some more interest. So perhaps you might understand why it is upsetting to see our arguments deflected with some vague dismissal of "general embargoes", or oratory against "stasis", and appeals to such absolutely irrelevant matters as Doom Emacs, or because it amounts to declaring that "users ought never to rebind keys at all." Reverting to these general proclamations of triumph gives the impression of being disinterested in constructive communication and trying to understand your opponents' positions, and being rather more inclined to simply heckle opponents into silence if agreement is impossible. Seriously, ask yourself this simple question, if the existence of default keybindings are truly no deterrent to customization, why is cua-mode necessary for the majority of its users, who simply need C-z rebound to undo and C-x to kill-region? And why will the introduction of new keybindings not produce new habits in users, or, why will such habits not be out of place in sessions where those key sequences had long been bound otherwise? But no, we must be treated to oratory composed of allusions to Doom Emacs, Emacs's need to remain competitive in the 21st century, and other verbiage. For shame!