From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Michael Heerdegen via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#72328: [PATCH] Nested backquote in pcase Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 05:25:59 +0200 Message-ID: <87v7zrncmw.fsf@web.de> References: <87jzh62vtr.fsf@gmail.com> <877cd5k1ra.fsf@web.de> <871q3d347e.fsf@gmail.com> <877cd4rxqo.fsf@web.de> <867cd4ywnq.fsf@gnu.org> <87mslumpsw.fsf@gmail.com> <86msluuox9.fsf@gnu.org> <875xshn3km.fsf@gmail.com> <87cymo6wp9.fsf@web.de> <87v80gkmg7.fsf@gmail.com> <86ikwfqj9w.fsf@gnu.org> <87a5hqzrxg.fsf@gmail.com> <86o765q4yo.fsf@gnu.org> <871q31ztju.fsf@gmail.com> <87bk2580rv.fsf@web.de> <87msloxmmv.fsf@gmail.com> <86jzgrmua0.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Michael Heerdegen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16051"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, Thuna , 72328@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 23 05:26:41 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1shKwi-00042a-GC for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Thu, 22 Aug 2024 23:26:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1724383513; x=1724988313; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=e+i4LuXqK5aTsPsx1Vncfgj5m+6Mw+hJ8yYm/hRJUro=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=ISI5onr0OIgvLDOu8hdIvQrkTJBXgUum3gotTqcG8yFG2v06nVWQqbsUOLiq7ECm qQuV9R5KWjlMuU6C24SaGtFXe/OZNvJIIjHS/bXdF27d9CBU037Mmtfsjj/xjLD/b CQG4yukpj82P37VqZ9WazmTXFoqvtJwfEhbCo4bd6vhTSGaBQ8Q+odHpIQngpNICA 6J5RM5y+PJ2HnEoYUhuNoNTpBWs1QsCvM0/KHFqC8h1LhC2+HO0xu+GX7z1BGezfl jdVlWWmLlC7USfJhyYo4oGWX+j3+jDVC/fNZZ4AW9ZEa2VpcVBq3jgH70G1hG7I36 NT5EMB3La3TogCp9fQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Original-Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.176]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MbTH3-1s6MLI2vFJ-00c3EX; Fri, 23 Aug 2024 05:25:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: <86jzgrmua0.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 08 Aug 2024 08:57:11 +0300") X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:fFWpIbv7LgsKzkfo6NLacxmxn7ormB96W+JnPBtUC+elZzUrW8F wf5+s974hBkAC6vgrhFkfLQaxQihJ1ITg0AWrO5bpiaBfJwZD/aQCl3tjOPotPIsAJqz2qk clc+ncuY4St9gU8YhgU/bJrI14X9+jG0lfdX3Cz6yvfmVFQGwzcEwVahnqT/Oum9txQIs5h /nVEccN1rhzf+eeXG0l9w== UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:7u38IYNjxNM=;9mvzKg1ixJtAp6BdN/sGctueobX q3sl9m2Q04XQ1rNWsOvvsNDBbecdrPqC4lOs9bRHj9CPdXHXqWnPNsMVJg7hGROzpayDXY96V X7APrxSd8hzAtXB+Hez5kubkOJvUZ9vhzPVRiILjd5EnzUs1QwWAALVEMo1LEGmHCSI/7zT2+ yUSSZz62M8g3VkuVXyJecTj0hs30NLih4cFXBPnCNsZ3GdcLnHiiZpWlwYk6N4pqroqppyb8q GaHfaDac/jCfJVPoWgvT+FGC6WFOx542XGsvqaZt5BbVZK2bX3YkIZyYCZeUZuQGaoky9F+Kw TRTs9IIUSnxHif2PIjfL0rRfJLl9SqhYIWzHc2I0zy/fmCdS2+gkwD8NwNSKtX2eeVNytStis 4EWhbKjEhTmvSbSZ2XmRHcT2dqW1st3JXAr/fVJUq/ub6+PLHicwDAahtsxu3fRjG5/pXa2tO luq6zeLmuR/koZqF4zqGVk2z3Xg+jES0aPMyCkTCT1GaOdR4ZNBpjR+LNkFGQZsVqvnC+X9wz HR6LTujXTZi032U5X0AZaH2fudRoAC8zM3p6n3Bm0kRXtZhN3Nv6rW00Gw89e/dBi/wuzX3nt VFl25pyiQ5A++AjphBlognQBabrWlFN6n0orQiHMz8cgXdPtJi5TQQYVgFeufMpIBFI2+w8mN BzxVDjeh8FWdverio7uej6esScxkpQ2ZdtDL7UIg30eKvDla2OoYHCTzdcBSR4fa95aFg66SZ 4uGWve/JtFvlFyIAT/ZEw+Q9ec4vB0vl8D4W04SEFl2JfcGPaLBHC8jzZVF9Sof+KxeyTKCi X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:290568 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: [I'm trying to keep this discussion alive...] > > What I question is not Eli's intentions or reasons, but the consequences > > of complying with those requests: I fear that the moment I start > > defending and giving justifications for the existence of macroexp-null, > > this report will forever be reduced to just a "companion patch" whose > > sole purpose is to make a later patch *look* nice. My concern is that > > this will end up the same way me showing no code in melpa would be > > effected by this patch did - with my case being hurt on false grounds. > > You make it sound as if there's some hidden agenda in this discussion. > There isn't. Yes, Thuna, from experience I know that the way Eli asks questions for some people (including myself) sometimes suggests intentions that are not there. It's not a mistake to just answer his questions, IME. > So justification for introducing such change in behavior is actually > the main point that needs to be discussed, because it will be a main > factor in the decision whether we want to install such a change. And > the justifications that we are interested to hear are the situations > where using the available behavior would cause such significant > inconvenience or unclean code that having this new behavior would > avoid. Then we will have to decide whether those situations are > important enough for us to risk the incompatibilities, complicate the > documentation, add backward-compatibility shims, etc. -- all of which > make Emacs slightly more complex and slightly harder to maintain. Would be good to hear from Stefan how he would estimate the risk of potential incompatibilities. And the value of the change of semantics. [ The rest of my message is more or less a summary of aspects already given, from my perspective. ] Thinking more about it, from the things I can see, I think I'm in favor of this change. In the long run it makes Elisp more consistent. I don't know how often backquote values are needed to be matched. I guess not terribly often. OTOH, this ,'\, circus really can drive one crazy, it's not obvious what one needs to do at all to match a backquote value correctly, so it's also an improvement to enable people to do this in a reachable way, and the code also gets better readable. OTOH, I think the current semantics of pcase ` are easier to explain in a formal way. Dunno if this is an advantage though, since most people don't seem to understand them anyway. Thuna, do you have any other ideas where your patch would be a significant improvement - practical use cases? I must admit I'm not yet completely sure how the impact of the patch would on using el-search - although I often use it to search backquote expressions. Guess I'm too used to the current semantics now :-( What I can say is that I often wished that it would be easier, in one way or the other. Michael.