Suggestion: Put C-h N (news) in org-mode

Suggestion: Put C-h N (news) in org-mode

[T.V. Raman]

Subject line pretty much says it all --

Old-style outline mode is    suboptimal compared to org-mode --
and worse, launching C-h N  and trying outline-based
nav  fails.

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

Re: Suggestion: Put C-h N (news) in org-mode

[Bastien]

"T.V. Raman" <tv.raman.tv@gmail.com> writes:

> Subject line pretty much says it all --

Yes.  I like to make this change.

etc/PROBLEMS
etc/TODO

are the two other good candidates.

Unless Stefan and Chong say the change is not good,
I will propose a (minimal) patch for the three files.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Suggestion: Put C-h N (news) in org-mode

[Stefan Monnier]

> Subject line pretty much says it all --
> Old-style outline mode is suboptimal compared to org-mode --
> and worse, launching C-h N and trying outline-based
> nav fails.

I'm not necessarily opposed to it, but I'd like to hear some more
concrete reasons why the difference would be good (and why for those
particular files).
E.g. an alternative is to move some of Org's functionality into Outline,
or even make outline-mode into an alias for org-mode.


        Stefan

Re: Suggestion: Put C-h N (news) in org-mode

[Jambunathan K]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> Subject line pretty much says it all --
>> Old-style outline mode is suboptimal compared to org-mode --
>> and worse, launching C-h N and trying outline-based
>> nav fails.
>
> I'm not necessarily opposed to it, but I'd like to hear some more
> concrete reasons why the difference would be good (and why for those
> particular files).
> E.g. an alternative is to move some of Org's functionality into Outline,
> or even make outline-mode into an alias for org-mode.

Org-mode's `org-cycle' and `org-global-cycle' are definitely it's
strengths.  I have the attached snippet (see below) in my .emacs.

Whether I am in `outline-mode' (NEWS) or `outline-minor-mode' (*.el
files), I don't have to use or remember outline mode's key bindings for
folding or unfolding at all [1].

It would really be a convenience if the snippet below were moved to
vanilla Emacs, so that I don't have to carry it around with me.

    (add-hook 'emacs-lisp-mode-hook
              (lambda ()
                (outline-minor-mode)))

    (add-hook 'outline-minor-mode-hook
              (lambda ()
                (define-key outline-minor-mode-map [(control tab)] 
                  (lambda nil
                    (interactive)
                    (call-interactively 'org-cycle)
                    (recenter-top-bottom 4)))
                (define-key outline-minor-mode-map [backtab]
                  (lambda nil 
                    (interactive)
                    (call-interactively 'org-global-cycle)
                    (recenter-top-bottom 4)))))

    (add-hook 'outline-mode-hook
      (lambda ()
        (define-key outline-mode-map [(tab)] 'org-cycle)
        (define-key outline-mode-map [backtab] 'org-global-cycle)))

Footnotes: 

[1] Remember folding helps not only with viewing but also with
organizing (and hence facilitates easy re-factoring).  To collect a
bunch of defuns under a single outline just fold the whole file so that
the names of defuns are visible, C-k, C-k, C-k and C-y them away.
-- 

Re: Suggestion: Put C-h N (news) in org-mode

[Bastien]

Hi Stefan,

as Jambunathan says, the main advantage would be to "cycle"
through various displays more easily.

To test this:

C-h N
M-x orgstruct-mode RET

then TAB several times on a headline.  If you want to test
"global cycling", simply M-x org-mode RET and try S-TAB.

Another not-so-small advantage is to let developers use the
files (especially TODO/PROBLEMS) as Org TODO lists -- or to
import tasks from these files into their Org TODO list.
C-c @ on a headline will copy it, then C-y anywhere in an 
Org file will yank it.

The change boils down to better formatting NEWS/TODO/PROBLEMS
by having one-line headlines, which is already an improvement
over the current NEWS/TODO/PROBLEMS IMHO.

I will send a patch when I find time today.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Suggestion: Put C-h N (news) in org-mode

[Jambunathan K]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> to better formatting NEWS/TODO/PROBLEMS by having one-line headlines

I recommend standalone headlines that are also on diet.  

Current pattern of `X changes in Emacs-X.Y' is too verbose to be
helpful.  A better option would be to adopt something along the lines of

* Emacs 24.3
** Area X
*** Area X.Y
Something changed here.
-- 

Re: Suggestion: Put C-h N (news) in org-mode

[Bastien]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> to better formatting NEWS/TODO/PROBLEMS by having one-line headlines
>
> I recommend standalone headlines that are also on diet.  

Yes.

> Current pattern of `X changes in Emacs-X.Y' is too verbose to be
> helpful.  A better option would be to adopt something along the lines of
>
> * Emacs 24.3
> ** Area X
> *** Area X.Y
> Something changed here.

I would remove some depth and simply use

* Emacs 24.3
** X changed [from ... to ...]

Note that in this case, we'd also need to take of `C-u C-h n'.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Suggestion: Put C-h N (news) in org-mode

[Karl Fogel]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>or even make outline-mode into an alias for org-mode.

+1

At least, I never use plain outline mode anymore; org-mode seems to be
the right superset.

Re: Suggestion: Put C-h N (news) in org-mode

[Chong Yidong]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> Subject line pretty much says it all --
>> Old-style outline mode is suboptimal compared to org-mode --
>> and worse, launching C-h N and trying outline-based
>> nav fails.
>
> I'm not necessarily opposed to it, but I'd like to hear some more
> concrete reasons why the difference would be good (and why for those
> particular files).
> E.g. an alternative is to move some of Org's functionality into Outline,
> or even make outline-mode into an alias for org-mode.

One thing I did notice with Org mode is that there is a noticeable delay
between visiting a file and having it displayed.  On my laptop,
displaying NEWS with Org mode takes about a second, whereas visiting it
with Outline mode is almost instantaneous.  I'm not sure where the
bottleneck is.

Re: Suggestion: Put C-h N (news) in org-mode

[Bastien]

Chong Yidong <cyd@gnu.org> writes:

> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>
>>> Subject line pretty much says it all --
>>> Old-style outline mode is suboptimal compared to org-mode --
>>> and worse, launching C-h N and trying outline-based
>>> nav fails.
>>
>> I'm not necessarily opposed to it, but I'd like to hear some more
>> concrete reasons why the difference would be good (and why for those
>> particular files).
>> E.g. an alternative is to move some of Org's functionality into Outline,
>> or even make outline-mode into an alias for org-mode.
>
> One thing I did notice with Org mode is that there is a noticeable delay
> between visiting a file and having it displayed.  On my laptop,
> displaying NEWS with Org mode takes about a second, whereas visiting it
> with Outline mode is almost instantaneous.  I'm not sure where the
> bottleneck is.

I guess the one-second delay is when you load org.el for the first
time.  Right?

That's indeed a problem.  My plan for Org 8.0 is to put org.el on diet
and to modularize it more so that loading the minimal set of feature
should not cause such a delay.

In the meantime, I'm working on a patch that simply reformat entries
in etc/NEWS so that each headline takes only one line.  This will let
people turn on org-mode if they want.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Suggestion: Put C-h N (news) in org-mode

[Bastien]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> Subject line pretty much says it all --
>> Old-style outline mode is suboptimal compared to org-mode --
>> and worse, launching C-h N and trying outline-based
>> nav fails.
>
> I'm not necessarily opposed to it, but I'd like to hear some more
> concrete reasons why the difference would be good (and why for those
> particular files).

Another good reason would be to be able to publish etc/NEWS as a 
HTML file.  This is probably more convenient than reading the plain
file from the bzr/git tree.

> E.g. an alternative is to move some of Org's functionality into Outline,
> or even make outline-mode into an alias for org-mode.

The latter seems useful, but we need to trim org.el first, so that
loading it does not take too long.

-- 
 Bastien