From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Have you all gone crazy? Was: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 09:27:38 +0100 Message-ID: <87tx0qiv45.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <87388bnzha.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <87k31mdbhe.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1419064111 32695 80.91.229.3 (20 Dec 2014 08:28:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 08:28:31 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Phillip Lord , "Allen S. Rout" , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 20 09:28:23 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2FOf-000113-8N for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 09:28:21 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33711 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2FOe-0000lE-LS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 03:28:20 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42477) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2FOR-0000l9-T7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 03:28:08 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2FON-0001py-IG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 03:28:07 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:33309) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2FON-0001pt-EW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 03:28:03 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40480 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2FOK-0004Ck-Tr; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 03:28:01 -0500 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2E0F6E056B; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 09:27:38 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <87k31mdbhe.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (Stephen J. Turnbull's message of "Sat, 20 Dec 2014 16:30:37 +0900") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:180361 Archived-At: "Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: > The right way to stir things up is to appeal to the choir, not to the > tourists gawking at the icons in the back of the hall. The criterion > for appeal of a new documentation format is clear: present a proof of > concept translation of a "representative" Emacs manual[1] to the new > source format, along with built manuals in the target format(s) and > any tools needed to implement the desired navigation features. The > cost is high, but experience shows that worthwhile moves usually have > redundant costs being paid. There is actually another hidden hurdle that has not been mentioned: the target format "Info" is not independent from the manual's organization of content: content is organized into node-sized chunks, with a somewhat hierarchical organization intended to make all non-bottom nodes fit on a screen if feasible in order to make navigation fast. However, this kind of "fast" implies that not every following of a link requires substantial time fetching and rerendering pages. HTML (let alone http and the Internet) is not intended for fast flipping back and forth between independent pages, and the HTML browsers are not supposed to deal with humongous pages comprising a whole manual either. Finding tolerable compromises in organizing a manual into HTML-browsing suitable form that is not in one of several ways more painful or awkward to work with than avoidable requires a quite less hierarchical organization than a good Info manual provides. So it is not just a question of a flat conversion to get from a good Info manual to a good HTML manual. There have been people looking at the organization of the Emacs manual in its HTML form in this thread who claimed that it is just awfully badly organized and written. But this impression is much more pervasive when using the manual in the HTML renderings than in Info mode. This kind of criticism might even partly apply to the Info rendering, but if it does not significantly impact working with the manual in its Info rendition, improvement efforts tend to go somewhere else first. The impression would likely be different if the typical HTML rendition of a manual would closer resemble a folding editor or other non-flat but still instantly accessible representation. -- David Kastrup