From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ivan Shmakov Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.bugs,gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: texi2html output validity Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 17:21:01 +0000 Message-ID: <87tx0mffk2.fsf@violet.siamics.net> References: <87h9wqimf0.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87y4q1fekv.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87k31kga2y.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87r3vsdps7.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87a92ehctk.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> <20141223164911.GD5623@free.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1419355286 13165 80.91.229.3 (23 Dec 2014 17:21:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 17:21:26 +0000 (UTC) To: bug-texinfo@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: bug-texinfo-bounces+gnu-bug-texinfo2=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 23 18:21:22 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: gnu-bug-texinfo2@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3T98-0004HL-Ez for gnu-bug-texinfo2@m.gmane.org; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 18:21:22 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45647 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3T97-0006I4-S0 for gnu-bug-texinfo2@m.gmane.org; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 12:21:21 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52635) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3T93-0006BP-DR for bug-texinfo@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 12:21:18 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3T92-0001oU-A4 for bug-texinfo@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 12:21:17 -0500 Original-Received: from fely.am-1.org ([2a01:4f8:d15:1b86::2]:52114) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3T8z-0001m4-Bs; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 12:21:13 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=siamics.net; s=a2013295; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:Sender:References:Subject:To:From; bh=WEey4275+nvm07QPqOvdBRvoItODQTjxIi4MuqvYtNM=; b=S1WzMGjPG0VCv5JJSysgqtOqQO2EEhVD8tK/gb/r4JCH7AjwzgYMxJ/G+7hj2HlNLN9x7W7qLGyV2GAR6dmXumohVjGnSDNAi0Z4KlOjS6L7qb2XyJdcRZH5EI4Yh1Vrcif2GpCPJH93H+ayUCWJuRPDz/dymYSXqgz+BXZg1VA=; Original-Received: from [2a02:2560:6d4:26ca::1:1d] (helo=violet.siamics.net) by fely.am-1.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3T8v-0005RG-8r; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 17:21:09 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=violet.siamics.net) by violet.siamics.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3T8o-0003In-5Q; Wed, 24 Dec 2014 00:21:02 +0700 Mail-Followup-To: bug-texinfo@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org In-Reply-To: <20141223164911.GD5623@free.fr> (Patrice Dumas's message of "Tue, 23 Dec 2014 17:49:11 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a01:4f8:d15:1b86::2 X-BeenThere: bug-texinfo@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Bug reports for the GNU Texinfo documentation system List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-texinfo-bounces+gnu-bug-texinfo2=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-texinfo-bounces+gnu-bug-texinfo2=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.bugs:6983 gmane.emacs.devel:180581 Archived-At: >>>>> Patrice Dumas writes: >>>>> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 09:29:07PM +0700, Yuri Khan wrote: >>> =E2=80=A2 the element is /always/ used instead of ; >> Cursory reading of HTML.pm seems to indicate that is >> currently*** used for @key, @t, @verb, and some kinds of tables >> possibly related to @example, @smallexample, @lisp and @smalllisp. > Use of in @example, @smallexample, @lisp and @smalllisp is for > very special case, something like a @table nested in those formats. Could you please clarify this one? Aren=E2=80=99t @example, etc. supposed to be used to format code examples? If so, =E2=80=93 the proper HTML element for their contents /is/ . [=E2=80=A6] >> @key should be rendered as , possibly with an additional class. >> Yes, even when inside @kbd =E2=80=94 HTML allows and encourages nesting >> . > I am not convinced. @key is semantically very diferent from @kbd > which is the same as . Indeed is not for a keyboard key > in HTML, but for typed keyboard input. The element is for both [1]: When the kbd element is nested inside another kbd element, it represents an actual key or other single unit of input as appropriate for the input mechanism. Here the kbd element is used to indicate keys to press:

To make George eat an apple, press Shift+F3

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-kbd-element [=E2=80=A6] >> @verb is syntax sugar for escaping characters which have special >> meaning in Texinfo, and has a non-semantic side effect of >> fixed-width rendering. It probably should become a >> . > Once again this will only work if there is CSS support. should > always work. That being said, the best could be . I have no data on the actual usage of the @verb command, but if it=E2=80=99s used primarily for code fragments, would still be a better choice. Please note that in HTML, a =E2=80=9Ccode fragment=E2=80=9D is given a very broad definition [2]: The code element represents a fragment of computer code. This could be an XML element name, a file name, a computer program, or any other string that a computer would recognize. [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-code-element [=E2=80=A6] > I may have missed something, but in the specification of 4.01 > Transitional all the element you describe as needing to be dropped > are accepted? I see them all in > http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/sgml/loosedtd.html The problem is that for a couple of months now, the most recent HTML version is HTML5, and it does /not/ specify these elements. Granted, there=E2=80=99re browsers which still support these, but I could easily imagine a new browser project being started that would just ignore all the cruft that was already scheduled to be removed back in the 20th century. > Also, I think that, at least in the past, I checked the validity of > texi2html/makinfo output with some program and the HTML was valid. > We in fact choose that DTD in order to have a good rendering both in > old and new browser, Is there a list of =E2=80=9Cold=E2=80=9D browsers that Texinfo is bound to support and /why/? Is it, say, still deemed worthwhile to support Arena and Mosaic? > with or without CSS. The nice thing about the (current) browsers with limited or no support for CSS is that they tend to lack support for fonts, and sometimes even for alignment, image borders (or images altogether), and such. So, I expect there to be no actual loss in presentation after moving the formatting from HTML to CSS. Feel free to suggest counter-examples, though, =E2=80=93 I by no means am a Web browser expert. [=E2=80=A6] --=20 FSF associate member #7257 http://boycottsystemd.org/ =E2=80=A6 3013 B6A0= 230E 334A