Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> writes:

> I am trying to use gnus translate, i.e. f10 article
> transate. I got babel.el from
>
> https://github.com/juergenhoetzel/babel
>
> but it seems to just hang.
>
> I have tried some other versions but none has worked
> so far. Is this now defunct?

To answer your question in the subject line: no,
gnu.emacs.gnus isn't dead. Getting data from the
Usenet server nntp.aioe.org, I see your post. As of
now, no one answered, but that is another issue.

Yet another issue is: instead of using nttp.aioe.org,
I'd recommend using Gmane, i.e. news.gmane.org where
your post also appeared in the gmane.emacs.gnus.user
newsgroup.

(Sometimes people talk of the Gmane hierarchy as
"Usenet" but it is actually a gateway so mailing lists
can be interacted with as if they were Usenet
newsgroups. This distinction is not academic but very
important. And I'm not just saying that...)

To (not) answer your question about Gnus and Babel:
I don't know. The translation stuff I do is collected
in an interface [1] to the google-translate package,
which you can get from ELPA. Perhaps that is helpful
to you as well.

[1] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/emacs-init/translate.el

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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Hikaru Ichijyo]

I recently adopted Gnus as my main mail/newsreader.  I stopped posting
when I didn't have any more major questions.  It may be that way with a
lot of users -- nothing more to say once you're not having any more
problems.  :)

-- 
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent
that will reach to himself.
					--Thomas Paine

Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> writes:

> I recently adopted Gnus as my main mail/newsreader.
> I stopped posting when I didn't have any more major
> questions. It may be that way with a lot of users --
> nothing more to say once you're not having any more
> problems. :)

That is rather indicative of stagnation, lack of
interest... It is not just new users that should do
new stuff with the software. Not a good sign if so!

-- 
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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Jorge A. Alfaro-Murillo]

Emanuel Berg writes: 
 
> Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> writes: 
> 
>> I recently adopted Gnus as my main mail/newsreader.  I stopped 
>> posting when I didn't have any more major questions. It may be 
>> that way with a lot of users -- nothing more to say once you're 
>> not having any more problems. :) 
> 
> That is rather indicative of stagnation, 

Gnus is not stagnated, check the log of the repo 
(http://git.gnus.org/cgit/gnus.git/log/) is quite active for being 
such an old program (which is a good thing).

> lack of interest...  

There is no lack of interest, the active list is 
gmane.emacs.gnus.general

> It is not just new users that should do new stuff with the 
> software. Not a good sign if so! 
 
Quite the opposite happens for gnus (possibly because of the steep 
learning curve), see 
http://git.gnus.org/cgit/gnus.git/stats/?period=m&ofs=-1 those are 
old users. 

Best,
-- 
Jorge.

Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

jorge.alfaro-murillo@yale.edu (Jorge A.
Alfaro-Murillo) writes:

>>> I recently adopted Gnus as my main mail/newsreader.
>>> I stopped posting when I didn't have any more major
>>> questions. It may be that way with a lot of users
>>> -- nothing more to say once you're not having any
>>> more problems. :)
>> That is rather indicative of stagnation,
>
> Gnus is not stagnated, check the log of the repo
> (http://git.gnus.org/cgit/gnus.git/log/) is quite
> active for being such an old program (which is a good
> thing).
>
>> lack of interest...
>
> There is no lack of interest, the active list is
> gmane.emacs.gnus.general
>
>> It is not just new users that should do new stuff
>> with the software. Not a good sign if so!
>
> Quite the opposite happens for gnus (possibly because
> of the steep learning curve), see
> http://git.gnus.org/cgit/gnus.git/stats/?period=m&ofs=-1
> those are old users.

You misread my post. What I said applies to what the
other poster said, not Gnus.

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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Hikaru Ichijyo]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> writes:
>
>> I recently adopted Gnus as my main mail/newsreader.
>> I stopped posting when I didn't have any more major
>> questions. It may be that way with a lot of users --
>> nothing more to say once you're not having any more
>> problems. :)
>
> That is rather indicative of stagnation, lack of
> interest... It is not just new users that should do
> new stuff with the software. Not a good sign if so!

Not necessarily...  One of the things I generally like about Unix
software is that it's not always flashy, or even friendly to new users,
but once you get it working, it stays working, almost forever.  It's a
forty year old platform based on keeping things simple and hard to
break, even if that means it looks "old" to some people and it doesn't
have fad appeal.

For me, having little to say about a piece of software that's working
very well is typical of Unix software.  It just works, and there's not
much more to say.

-- 
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent
that will reach to himself.
					--Thomas Paine

Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> writes:

> One of the things I generally like about Unix
> software is that it's not always flashy, or even
> friendly to new users, but once you get it working,
> it stays working, almost forever. It's a forty year
> old platform based on keeping things simple and hard
> to break, even if that means it looks "old" to some
> people and it doesn't have fad appeal.

Well, "yes", "sometimes", and "no".

Yes: Unix software is robust, reliable, and powerful.

Sometimes: "friendly to new users" depends who them
new users are. When some of them come to Linux they
think it is great instantly because ls(1) and the
command-line options are much more friendly to them
than the GUIs the WIMPs are using...

("WIMP": coined 1980 - precursor of "GUI": "windows,
icons, menus, pointer" [1] - it is funny because it is
true...)

> For me, having little to say about a piece of
> software that's working very well is typical of Unix
> software. It just works, and there's not much more
> to say.

No: people have a lot to say about such simple tools -
for example, ls(1). My ls alias is

    "ls -GX --group-directories-first --color=auto -I \"*.meta\" -I \"#*#\""

and that isn't it by far. [2]

And one step up the creativity ladder, just G00gle for
relatively simple tools as sed, awk, and see what you
get (actually, what you see is what you get).

If people weren't talking about, configuring,
modifying, and adapting/expanding Gnus, that would be
a clear sign Gnus is done.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_(computing)
[2] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/.zsh/ls

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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> writes:

> If it helps, I am not a new user, I have been using
> gnus for a few years. I have just never tried to use
> translate before, as far as I can remember.

New users aren't the most active ones in newsgroups.
How could they be? Typically they want standard things
to work and when they interact around the technology
it takes more time than with experienced users to do
whatever they do (of comparable scope).

Also with experienced users they have more breadth and
depth to their knowledge so there is more to talk
about, and they have acquired a "technology
personality" wich also may include the
communication itself.

So everyone is welcome. Remember, when you are young,
you want to be the master. When you are the master,
you want to be young...

-- 
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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Eric Abrahamsen]

David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> writes:

> Subject: Gnus Article Transate with Babel.el: Does it work?
> Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.gnus
> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 18:14:34 +0000 (5 days, 1 hour, 22 minutes ago)
>
> I am trying to use gnus translate, i.e. f10 article transate. I got
> babel.el from
>
> https://github.com/juergenhoetzel/babel
>
> but it seems to just hang.
>
> I have tried some other versions but none has worked so far. Is this now
> defunct?

The newsgroup I see the most traffic in is gmane.emacs.gnus.general.
Dunno why (probably just historical drift), but that's the one where
people seem to be talking.

Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> writes:

>> Yet another issue is: instead of using
>> nttp.aioe.org, I'd recommend using Gmane, i.e.
>> news.gmane.org where your post also appeared in the
>> gmane.emacs.gnus.user newsgroup.
>
> Do you mean to read or to post?

I'm able to both read and post both from/to
gmane.emacs.gnus.user with NNTP on news.gmane.org
*and* from/to gnu.emacs.gnus on nntp.aioe.org.

> I am not sure what gnus does when I am browsing
> a different server from the default. I guess it
> posts to whatever server I am currently reading.

Yes. If you want to mess around with that explicitely,
there is the `gnus-post-method' variable. I think that
should be automatized tho if it isn't already...

> I have the server news.gnus.org in my list and I see
> there is a post from Zed which does not appear on
> gmane, or hasn't yet, nor on aioe.

OK. I've never been to news.gnus.org but let me check
it out.

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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> OK. I've never been to news.gnus.org but let me
> check it out.

What I see is this message:

    Zed - Duplicated RSS articles often appear

which appears in all of these:

    NNTP server      newsgroup
    --------------------------------------
    news.gmane.org   gmane.emacs.gnus.user
    news.gnus.org    gnu.emacs.gnus
    nntp.aioe.org    gnu.emacs.gnus

Just as it should. ... what exactly are we talking
about, again? :)

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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Alexis]

David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> writes:

> Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:
>
>> To (not) answer your question about Gnus and Babel: I don't 
>> know. The translation stuff I do is collected in an interface 
>> [1] to the google-translate package, which you can get from 
>> ELPA. Perhaps that is helpful to you as well.
>>
>> [1] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/emacs-init/translate.el
>
> OK I don't know what I am doing. From what I have read ELPA is 
> the default package repo for gnu emacs. So I should be able to
>
> package-refresh-contents package-install google-translate? or 
> translate? What is it called?

'ELPA' just means 'Emacs Lisp Package Archive'. There are a number 
of such ELPAs: GNU ELPA (sometimes abbreviated to GELPA), the 
Marmalade ELPA, MELPA, and so on. i believe that 
`google-translate` is only packaged on MELPA, so you'll need to 
set up your Emacs to use MELPA:

http://melpa.org/#/getting-started

You should then find MELPA packages listed when you call 
`package-list-packages`, and be able to `package-install` the 
`google-translate` package.


Alexis.

Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

Alexis <flexibeast@gmail.com> writes:

> i believe that `google-translate` is only packaged
> on MELPA

Indeed - it is in MELPA. My mistake.

> 'ELPA' just means 'Emacs Lisp Package Archive'.
> There are a number of such ELPAs: GNU ELPA
> (sometimes abbreviated to GELPA), the Marmalade
> ELPA, MELPA, and so on. ...

Ha ha (?) - this (fails to) remind me of something...

> You should then find MELPA packages listed when you
> call `package-list-packages`, and be able to
> `package-install` the `google-translate` package.

Yes - you can use them transparently to browse all
Lisp without bother where to look. For example, as
just shown, this makes for ELPA and MELPA:

    (setq package-archives
      '(( "elpa" . "http://elpa.gnu.org/packages/")
        ("melpa" . "http://melpa.milkbox.net/packages/") ))

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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> writes:

> From what I have read ELPA is the default package
> repo for gnu emacs.

Default or "official" perhaps.

> So I should be able to
>
> package-refresh-contents package-install
> google-translate? or translate? What is it called?

The package is `google-translate'. It is in MELPA, not
ELPA as I said.

Here is what I do:

    (package-initialize)

    (set-default 'tabulated-list-use-header-line nil)

    (defun elpa ()
      (interactive)
      (package-list-packages) )

    (defvar package-archives)
    (setq package-archives
          '(( "elpa" . "http://elpa.gnu.org/packages/")
            ("melpa" . "http://melpa.milkbox.net/packages/") ))

Complete source:

    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/emacs-init/elpa.el

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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[David Hume]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Yet another issue is: instead of using nttp.aioe.org,
> I'd recommend using Gmane, i.e. news.gmane.org where
> your post also appeared in the gmane.emacs.gnus.user
> newsgroup.
>
How do I post to that group/list? I tried via the news.gmane.org server
but it returned an error saying there was no body to the message. I
suspect this was a misleading error message as I have seen it before
with valid articles.

Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> writes:

> How do I post to that group/list? I tried via the
> news.gmane.org server but it returned an error
> saying there was no body to the message. I suspect
> this was a misleading error message as I have seen
> it before with valid articles.

Yeah, that shouldn't happen.

Did you add the group?

This is the entire chain of events as I do it. Try do
exactly the same. If it doesn't work at some step,
probably some setting is missing. It shouldn't be hard
to find if we know at what step something's missing.

Group buffer -> `gnus-group-enter-server-mode'

Server buffer -> nntp: news.gmane.org -> `gnus-server-read-server'

Browse buffer -> K: 108319: gmane.emacs.help -> `gnus-browse-unsubscribe-current-group'
(seemingly, it is confusing that it is called
*un*subscribe, but when I told them about it, they
said it isn't confusing)

Group buffer again -> gmane.emacs.help -> `gnus-group-post-news-to-group-at-point'

Message buffer -> type message -> `message-send-and-exit-current'

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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[David Hume]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Server buffer -> nntp: news.gmane.org -> `gnus-server-read-server'
>
> Browse buffer -> K: 108319: gmane.emacs.help ->
> `gnus-browse-unsubscribe-current-group' (seemingly, it is confusing
> that it is called *un*subscribe, but when I told them about it, they
> said it isn't confusing)
>

I had added the gnus.user group. So, I added the .help group, and now I see
my own post, and your reply. But these went to emacs.help. I was trying
to post to gnus. OK, so, confusion, this group is gmane.emacs.help. I
was trying to post to gmane.emacs.gnus.user.

Here is what I see in my list of groups for this group:

      46: nntp+news.gmane.org:gmane.emacs.help

But I cannot post to it, it says:

"Couldn't send message via news: 441 Article has no body -- just headers "

Maybe it is not sending it to the right server?

So I will now attempt to post this to gnu.emacs.help via my isp server or aioe...

Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Random832]

On 2015-12-07, David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> wrote:
> "Couldn't send message via news: 441 Article has no body -- just headers "

Did you make sure there was a blank line between the headers and
the body?

Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> writes:

> Here is what I see in my list of groups for this
> group:
>
>       46: nntp+news.gmane.org:gmane.emacs.help
>
> But I cannot post to it, it says:
>
> "Couldn't send message via news: 441 Article has no
> body -- just headers "

That error message sounds like some standard one in
the spirit of the web server error codes but Googling
it (front-page) shows only references from
lists/groups, and I can't find it in the RFCs or info
or man pages. And I can't find it in the source and
not in the binaries with strings(1). It must be
somewhere tho so keep looking...

It seems to indicate your post has just headers, and
no body. If you think differently, check out if this
variable is set in accordance:

    mail-header-separator

If that is right, try sending the exact message to
another destination - mail, nntp.aioe.org, whatever.
Does it work using the same interface?

> Maybe it is not sending it to the right server?

If you have Gnus directed at nntp.aioe.org by default,
and then you bring up the message buffer from
somewhere else, no, you can't type gmane.emacs.help
and send it, but even so it doesn't say the 441 stuff
but something like there isn't such a newsgroup.
However if you do it from the group buffer with point
at the gmane group (with
`gnus-group-post-news-to-group-at-point') then the
server is setup automatically.

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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> That error message sounds like some standard one in
> the spirit of the web server error codes but
> Googling it (front-page) shows only references from
> lists/groups, and I can't find it in the RFCs ...

OK, found it. You didn't believe I was serious there,
did you? ...

It is in RFC 3977:

    http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3977

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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> writes:

> I did a manual post using telnet, and the server
> does not seem to accept the terminating "." for the
> article, whereas the same worked on news.gnus.org

telnet!

You are obviously way above my level.

Cred!

Give my regards to John Draper.

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underground experts united
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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> writes:

> I did a manual post using telnet, and the server
> does not seem to accept the terminating "." for the
> article, whereas the same worked on news.gnus.org
>
> It looks like this:
>
> ==================================== Connected to
> news.gmane.org. Escape character is '^]'.
> 200 news.gmane.org InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.5.1
> ready (posting ok) post 340 Ok, recommended message-ID
> <n45nal$a0v$1@ger.gmane.org> From: David Hume
> <David.Hume@example.com> Newsgroups: gmane.test
> Subject: test 23
>
> This is a manual test
>
> . ==================================== At this point
> there was no response.

Despite this being a very cool thing you did, perhaps
the fruitful entry point is examining your setup at
large. Because I don't think there should be any
problem whatsoever getting Emacs Gnus to post
a message to a common, well-known list/group. Are you
using a normal PC, normal OS, etc.? Do you have very
"creative" Emacs/Gnus configuration?

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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> writes:

> It might have been cool, but it doesn't mean I am
> not stupid. What I should have done is the most
> obvious thing, I should have asked google. It seems
> that to post to gmane, I need to be authorized via
> email. As you can see no email is going to get to my
> email address so I was blissfully unaware of
> all that.

Well, yeah!

The first time you post to a gmane group you get
a mail. You answer that mail, and then the post slips
thru. After that you don't have to do it again.

But add another group, and be a first-timer there, you
do the dance again. This sounds like tedious but it is
not because it takes just a few seconds each time and
then it is done.

So, I take it you are not using Gnus for mail as well
as for NNTP? Because if you had, the reply mails would
have been difficult to miss. I didn't think of this,
because obviously I use Gnus for everything :))

Speaking of Gnus and mail, does anyone know what
"nnml" stand for? I did Google that, but contrary to
Comrade Hume I didn't find an answer. Is it "Network
News Mail Layer"?

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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Random832]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:
> David Hume <David.Hume@example.com> writes:
>> As you can see no email is going to get to my
>> email address so I was blissfully unaware of
>> all that.
>
> The first time you post to a gmane group you get
> a mail. You answer that mail, and then the post slips
> thru. After that you don't have to do it again.

You've missed the obvious: that he is not using a real email
address. Example.com is a placeholder domain name.

Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> writes:

>> The first time you post to a gmane group you get
>> a mail. You answer that mail, and then the post
>> slips thru. After that you don't have to do
>> it again.
>
> You've missed the obvious: that he is not using
> a real email address. Example.com is a placeholder
> domain name.

The next time you realize something obvious, why don't
you tell the OP instantly and solve his problem?

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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Random832]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:
> The next time you realize something obvious, why don't
> you tell the OP instantly and solve his problem?

He wasn't the one who didn't know it; you were. I hadn't been
paying very close attention to this thread until I noticed your
post.

Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> writes:

>> The next time you realize something obvious, why
>> don't you tell the OP instantly and solve
>> his problem?
>
> He wasn't the one who didn't know it; you were.
> I hadn't been paying very close attention to this
> thread until I noticed your post.

OK, start paying attention then and you can help
some people.

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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

David Hume <a10086773@hushmail.com> writes:

> I use gnus for email sometimes. But I use
> a different linux user to keep it all separate.
> I don't want to accidentally send mail to news or
> vice versa.

Well, that is the whole advantage: to have all
communication under one roof, one interface, one
method/arena of configuration (i.e., Elisp/Emacs),
etc. It is nothing that should be resigned over either
paranoia or self-doubt.

It also leads to new possibilities. While not
necessary it is a pleasant game to seek out such
mini-adventures. They keep you active.

For example, I often write posts to newsgroups and
then I include the e-mails of friends as well (the To:
header) which I know are somewhat into what is
discussed but do not follow the newsgroups anyway.
(To include them is lightning-fast because of the
aliases in the .mailrc file.) Then Gnus inserts
a small message saying it is a curtesy copy of
a newsgroup post...

To get the "other" header in a news as well as mail
setting, do:

    (setq message-default-news-headers  "To: ")
    (setq message-default-mail-headers  "Newsgroups: ")

> All is well which ends well. I can now post to
> gmane. Although I have forgotten what I originally
> wanted to post.

That's normal :)

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Re: Is gnu.emacs.gnus dead?

[Emanuel Berg]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Then Gnus inserts a small message saying it is
> a courtesy copy of a newsgroup post...

The exact message is:

    The following message is a courtesy copy of an
    article that has been posted to gmane.emacs.help
    as well.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573