From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:15:42 -0500 Message-ID: <87twgn4tgx.fsf@red-bean.com> References: <87a8ijreus.fsf@red-bean.com> Reply-To: Karl Fogel NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1466446722 22027 80.91.229.3 (20 Jun 2016 18:18:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 18:18:42 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rswgnu@gmail.com, adatgyujto@gmail.com, mats.lidell@cag.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jun 20 20:18:33 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bF3mC-0004ck-5I for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 20:18:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45509 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bF3m5-00069M-Jz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:18:17 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37852) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bF3jk-0003TG-02 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:15:53 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bF3je-0003Ch-0q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:15:50 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yw0-x22b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22b]:35457) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bF3jd-0003CT-SB; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:15:45 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yw0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id l125so30830425ywb.2; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:15:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=pc7WMRU3EFY/cjQs7fQIoPrGDXscIyvbONJ4OUxM748=; b=C1dmCT4VxRtPL4D3Ce+kp1SQMLiH+xOd51vbldN4grAdNQv5HnkQRgC0cSjhrjW42s 3xnMaWqbewr+dUaj8Hlq3j4Jms+pdO1nBfjcOs8Q+pUllH4U7dmMQTZ+skUHFooZpSKv +PlWhSXypC2Y5kb5D8kv0kbzisj4TZtJw7YM5JlQn/FHxsmgNs3dZgPtH/LL606twQWs FgUZmkSvum7Jnk/nW14EOT6ECo2+dPL/CKknXdPN7TzSJjrNBbmfW7fHr5JlXzkVf0zm YEBwp83ddWDW3nzUY6U5IW0ZLL3eC9Eb3GmAv3mtdZvVttb0jZZEnDcHEtWyXYsApD6R IN8Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to :date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=pc7WMRU3EFY/cjQs7fQIoPrGDXscIyvbONJ4OUxM748=; b=SvDQI5NsQK8xavTV7WQGGgKaPFKSlhkAnxTUYOlMBeDkc8iGHSKZ2GG/1pUqQotaQN cFghFjqK3G0k7kWMitNdMPplgNkdLD81ngnxMcZE3p7LY2Zfmac8m2qiZ1bl07/fgmYA xDCZ2kH/J0AnHnFjgmPzzgk2kP5vQKTCLvDhDBSeIgq3u3NTA1N9cLld27S/YdMnwcT/ FyB3jcWwOoSYUT59L+y2Lx7lJN3AOh2LmNOIv4zu4DGMhMtajyrkgsz0BOyXSVyG/+4T 8SGAuPNF6D8LghpuIXwAMliavIKXVuhxYMP49zOsygwmpVuIqWYyFdsRHafStmurnf2y NnLA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJHO3vl/Zh5ZdFdji2sx/ltWYgMlflsynye+OBVt3SLy9Jt/bAoIaJ86NXM/d+aZQ== X-Received: by 10.13.248.2 with SMTP id i2mr10630095ywf.134.1466446545192; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from floss (74-92-190-114-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [74.92.190.114]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u23sm607576ywc.37.2016.06.20.11.15.42 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:15:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Sat, 18 Jun 2016 14:06:23 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22b X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:204604 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > > Org Mode, like Emacs, requires a fair amount of investment on the > > part of the user before the rewards arrive. Once the rewards > > finally start arriving, the investment becomes worth it -- but > > until until then, one makes the effort on faith. > >That may be true, but I stand by what I said. >It is fine to have a structured editing mode, but it was >bad design to make other facilities depend on it in this way. >That makes a distortion in the overall design of Emacs. > >The other facilities should be separate things, even if they >can work with the structured editing mode. Even if they ALWAYS >use the structured editing mode, they should be separate >as far as the user is concerned, not "part of" it. Ah, sorry to make you [sort of] repeat yourself. Yes, this is a separate point from the one I was addressing, and may well be true. In general, I'm not sure how one would start extracting Org Mode features to make them independent from Org Mode. I think each feature would have to be handled on a case-by-case basis, because each of them depends on different aspects of Org Mode -- though what most of the features have in common is that they depend at least on the *syntax* of Org Mode files. Overall, this could be viewed as one of them most massive piles of technical debt in Emacs. Gulp.