From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 21:27:06 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87tvmx17cl.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83y3cu7t9j.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180827015422.lcq44zvsjffeau4j@Ergus> <83a7p76f5e.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8p9o6y.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83pnxx1foj.fsf@gnu.org> <87bm9d9zs9.fsf@russet.org.uk> <87efe75v02.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87sh2lu471.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87r2i4p2f8.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <83r2i4rmg7.fsf@gnu.org> <87o9d7bryw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <83va7fqlwe.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg897kzl.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <837ejtplyl.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536613512 15154 195.159.176.226 (10 Sep 2018 21:05:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 21:05:12 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: spacibba@aol.com, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 10 23:05:08 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fzTMj-0003fX-0M for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 23:05:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54001 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzTOp-0000eQ-F7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 17:07:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:39563) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzTNy-0007uY-5F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 17:06:19 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzTCJ-0001Rb-Jj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 16:54:16 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p01-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5301::5]:30937) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzTCH-0001Qk-UP; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 16:54:14 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1536612852; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=6eY0WEe0hsurTNHfji1Zxui1j3NKFTatjwKJMW1euQQ=; b=hGNrSyXGWBlClN9I43o1+Q4pnrOiArIjL1wOgoVelpdOCVeDzepafhX7GPZTHU2AGt fSIlyO/pE0saFhE8bShxhQXR2OKGkuDI0pD5xCUmMVMxNGS+rf850jlNmTQsScp2sVqf jp+JYulZkP2sLbwjl0Oe5CnAE2gY/TDPsPlL9jdb5Z2xNfyxoSbVhiQmiv6t1bZpCx8B xHfXve4iNhzK2EyOJa/ssOxJEKW+ycpXEq3X03kkdFVwTYn1V3SRw63SKNTPaeduy5Ca NNtUYgxEJdAYEJSmntgWw59Q0b6gt0Qs+agzOHvf6GTnQS4n32H8e5evZXna3rnvLQpG lRjg== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.0 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e03b99u8AKs8JsV (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Mon, 10 Sep 2018 22:54:08 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fzTCC-0001C2-1y; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 22:54:08 +0200 In-Reply-To: <837ejtplyl.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:37:38 +0300") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5301::5 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229653 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: hw >> Cc: spacibba@aol.com, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 11:35:58 +0200 >> >> > I see nothing wrong with that: if you are one of those who can't, just >> > ignore the part about ergonomic cursor motion keys. >> >> Does the tutorial say that when you use cursor keys, you can skip >> forward to line 322 and start reading there? > > It says "you can use the arrow keys". Skipping is not a problem, as > the tutorial has small and clearly marked sections. I'd break it down into multiple smaller tutorials, even if it is only so that users can say "Yay, I already finished three of the tutorials!" rather than "Yeah, I got only to line 234 and it's gona take ages to learn this.". Readers should not need to skip. Imagine you were watching a movie that said at the beginning "please skip the first 26% percent". Wouldn't you ask yourself why the makers of the movie have put these 26% at its beginning so that everyone needs to skip it? What's the point of doing that? It's like everyone on TV and the on the radio saying "you can look it up on the internet": Why do they bother to make a TV or radio show when I'm not supposed to watch or listen but to look it up on the internet? If I wanted that, I'd be doing it. > But I'm not opposed to adding an explicit sentence like that. That would allow them to feel save about skipping. Instead of making everyone skip, there could be information at the beginning people don't want to skip. >> The tutorial uses the first 322 lines (26%) to go on and on about these >> movement keys. It is supposed to be *the* Emacs tutorial, not a >> keyboard tutorial. > > They are not general keyboard features, they are _Emacs_ keyboard > input features. Moving (the cursor) around is a general feature of every software that involves cursor movement or even just scrolling. People can use Emacs just fine without ever knowing that it provides them with a whole set of key bindings for cursor movement. How are these special key bindings so important that they must take up the first 26% of the Emacs tutorial? If the most important feature of Emacs were its key bindings for cursor movement, then I might still be using joe. Joe doesn't work at all without key bindings, but you can easily move around without any special ones, and it's a pretty good editor. >> Do you really think that *the* Emacs tutorial should use its first 300+ >> lines to cover a non-issue? Isn't there anything much more interesting >> and far more important to learn about Emacs? > > We don't think this is a non-issue. It probably is for beginners. They can already move around, and they are eager to do that so they can learn about Emacs by doing something with it, like editing their files. Please disable your Alt key(s) and try the Emacs way of cursor movement, key bindings starting with M-C and everything you usually do with Emacs like that. Half a day might be enough to show you how efficiently the movement keys work :) Even with Alt working, I suggest that there are far more relevant things beginners need to learn than something they can already do. For those who really do not know how to move around at all, there could be a tutorial about just that which also explains cursor keys. I would think that those users are the most likely ones to pick up the Emacs way of movement; everyone else will probably continue with cursor keys.