Windows and MacOS and emacs.html

Windows and MacOS and emacs.html

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

The recent request to give FreeBSD "top billing" on emacs.html,
along with "GNU/Linux, Windows, and MacOS", led me to look at the
page to see what that would mean.

It appears that BSDs has already been listed there, which is 
But I saw something that is not ok: the way that Windows and MacOS
are given "top billing" too.

It is proper to include support for running Emacs on Windows and
MacOS, given that people keep maintaining it, and useful to inform
users that they can run Emacs on those systems.  But we should take
care to avoid appearing to legitimize the use of Windows and MacOS.
The most important thing about them is that _morally_ they are _not_
on a par with GNU/Linux, or with BSD.  When we tell people that Emacs
supports running on Windows and MacOS, we should also point out that
they are part of the problem we aim to eliminate.

Would people please change emacs.html to avoid that impression?

This approach could handle that.

    Freedom-respesting operating systems:

          GNU/Linux      BSDs

      Freedom-denying operating systems:

           Windows      MacOS

However, there is another problem there.

The subsections on installation on Windows, and on MacOS, are part of a
section that starts with an explanation of our policy towards those
systems, with heading "Nonfree systems."  That much is good.

But if you follow the links "Windows" and "MacOS" at the top of the
page, they take you straight to the subsections.  Users who follow
that path get to the practical information without passing by any hint
that we have moral criticism of those systems.

Indeed, we would like to make it easy for users of user-subjugating
systems to install Emacs and get a taste of freedom.  But that _must
not_ get in the way of conveying our main message, let alone cancel it
out.

So I think we should make "Windows" and "MacOS" link to the
"Nonfree systems" header line.

Any comments?  Let's discuss what change to make here.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Windows and MacOS and emacs.html

[황병희]

Hello, Richard^^^

>     Freedom-respesting operating systems:
>
>           GNU/Linux      BSDs

Thanks for adding BSDs, indeed...

Sincerely, Byung-Hee

-- 
^고맙습니다 _地平天成_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: Windows and MacOS and emacs.html

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

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Hello Richard,

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> It appears that BSDs has already been listed there, which is 
> But I saw something that is not ok: the way that Windows and MacOS
> are given "top billing" too.
> [...]
> Would people please change emacs.html to avoid that impression?
> This approach could handle that.
>     Freedom-respesting operating systems:
>           GNU/Linux      BSDs
>       Freedom-denying operating systems:
>            Windows      MacOS
> [...]
> However, there is another problem there.
> [...]
> But if you follow the links "Windows" and "MacOS" at the top of the
> page, they take you straight to the subsections.  Users who follow
> that path get to the practical information without passing by any hint
> that we have moral criticism of those systems.
> [...]
> So I think we should make "Windows" and "MacOS" link to the
> "Nonfree systems" header line.

FWIW, both problems seem to have /not/ been addressed yet.

-- 
Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
<http://oitofelix.freeshell.org/>

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Re: Windows and MacOS and emacs.html

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Thanks for reminding us.

Who can fix this?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Windows and MacOS and emacs.html

[Amin Bandali]

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Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> Thanks for reminding us.
>
> Who can fix this?

How's the following simple change:


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Index: download.html
===================================================================
RCS file: /web/emacs/emacs/download.html,v
retrieving revision 1.18
diff -u -r1.18 download.html
--- download.html	7 Mar 2020 16:40:54 -0000	1.18
+++ download.html	9 Apr 2020 04:05:25 -0000
@@ -87,7 +87,7 @@
                         way to install Emacs unless you always want to use the
                         latest release.</p>
                     
-                    <h2>Nonfree systems</h2>
+                    <h2 id="nonfree">Nonfree systems</h2>
 
                     <p>The reason for GNU Emacs's existence is to provide a
                         powerful editor for the <a href="/gnu">GNU operating system</a>.
Index: emacs.html
===================================================================
RCS file: /web/emacs/emacs/emacs.html,v
retrieving revision 1.189
diff -u -r1.189 emacs.html
--- emacs.html	7 Mar 2020 16:40:54 -0000	1.189
+++ emacs.html	9 Apr 2020 04:05:25 -0000
@@ -58,8 +58,8 @@
                     <div class="download-btns">
                         <a href="download.html#gnu-linux">&darr; GNU/Linux</a>
                         <a href="download.html#bsd">&darr; BSDs</a>
-                        <a href="download.html#windows">&darr; Windows</a>
-                        <a href="download.html#macos">&darr; MacOS</a>
+                        <a href="download.html#nonfree">&darr; Windows</a>
+                        <a href="download.html#nonfree">&darr; MacOS</a>
                     </div>
                     <img class="teaser" src="images/teaser.png" alt=""/>
                 </div>

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The "Nonfree systems" section does mention injustice, and does link to
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html,
mentioned in your earlier message <E1jB8TJ-00018d-GD@fencepost.gnu.org>.
So I just added an id for that heading on download.html, and changed the
Windows and MacOS links on emacs.html to use that instead.

If this is good enough, I will commit it to the emacs web pages repo.

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Re: Windows and MacOS and emacs.html

[Amin Bandali]

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Amin Bandali <bandali@gnu.org> writes:

[...]
>
> Index: download.html
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /web/emacs/emacs/download.html,v
> retrieving revision 1.18
> diff -u -r1.18 download.html
> --- download.html	7 Mar 2020 16:40:54 -0000	1.18
> +++ download.html	9 Apr 2020 04:05:25 -0000
> @@ -87,7 +87,7 @@
>                          way to install Emacs unless you always want to use the
>                          latest release.</p>
>                      
> -                    <h2>Nonfree systems</h2>
> +                    <h2 id="nonfree">Nonfree systems</h2>
>  
>                      <p>The reason for GNU Emacs's existence is to provide a
>                          powerful editor for the <a href="/gnu">GNU operating system</a>.
> Index: emacs.html
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /web/emacs/emacs/emacs.html,v
> retrieving revision 1.189
> diff -u -r1.189 emacs.html
> --- emacs.html	7 Mar 2020 16:40:54 -0000	1.189
> +++ emacs.html	9 Apr 2020 04:05:25 -0000
> @@ -58,8 +58,8 @@
>                      <div class="download-btns">
>                          <a href="download.html#gnu-linux">&darr; GNU/Linux</a>
>                          <a href="download.html#bsd">&darr; BSDs</a>
> -                        <a href="download.html#windows">&darr; Windows</a>
> -                        <a href="download.html#macos">&darr; MacOS</a>
> +                        <a href="download.html#nonfree">&darr; Windows</a>
> +                        <a href="download.html#nonfree">&darr; MacOS</a>
>                      </div>
>                      <img class="teaser" src="images/teaser.png" alt=""/>
>                  </div>
>
>
> The "Nonfree systems" section does mention injustice, and does link to
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html,
> mentioned in your earlier message <E1jB8TJ-00018d-GD@fencepost.gnu.org>.
> So I just added an id for that heading on download.html, and changed the
> Windows and MacOS links on emacs.html to use that instead.
>
> If this is good enough, I will commit it to the emacs web pages repo.

No comments, I have installed the above in the emacs web pages repo.

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Re: Windows and MacOS and emacs.html

[Stefan Kangas]

Amin Bandali <bandali@gnu.org> writes:

> > If this is good enough, I will commit it to the emacs web pages repo.
>
> No comments, I have installed the above in the emacs web pages repo.

It looks good to me, thanks for doing that.

While we're at it, perhaps this sentence could be clarified: "We
include support for some proprietary systems in GNU Emacs in the hope
that running Emacs on them will give users a taste of freedom and thus
lead them to free themselves."

I suggest: "... will give users a taste of freedom and thus lead them
to start using a free operating system."

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Re: Windows and MacOS and emacs.html

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > While we're at it, perhaps this sentence could be clarified: "We
  > include support for some proprietary systems in GNU Emacs in the hope
  > that running Emacs on them will give users a taste of freedom and thus
  > lead them to free themselves."

  > I suggest: "... will give users a taste of freedom and thus lead them
  > to start using a free operating system."

This change is a step forward at one level and a step backward at
another level.

The step forward is to clearly state the most specific thing we
encourage the reader to do: switch to a free operating system.

The step backward is to exclude the broad range of other things
that we also encourage the reader to do.

Would you like to aim to make the step forward without the step back?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Windows and MacOS and emacs.html

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

It looks good to me.
-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Windows and MacOS and emacs.html

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Please forgive me for taking so long to respond.  I am 500 messages
backlogged -- not yet seen -- since April 9.  I just saw your
message today.

  > -                        <a href="download.html#windows">&darr; Windows</a>
  > -                        <a href="download.html#macos">&darr; MacOS</a>
  > +                        <a href="download.html#nonfree">&darr; Windows</a>
  > +                        <a href="download.html#nonfree">&darr; MacOS</a>

Short and sweet.  Please do it.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Windows and MacOS and emacs.html

[Amin Bandali]

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Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> Please forgive me for taking so long to respond.  I am 500 messages
> backlogged -- not yet seen -- since April 9.  I just saw your
> message today.
>
>   > -                        <a href="download.html#windows">&darr; Windows</a>
>   > -                        <a href="download.html#macos">&darr; MacOS</a>
>   > +                        <a href="download.html#nonfree">&darr; Windows</a>
>   > +                        <a href="download.html#nonfree">&darr; MacOS</a>
>
> Short and sweet.  Please do it.

Cheers.  I installed the patch some days after my previous message, as
no objections were raised.  Glad to see you're happy about it. :-)

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Re: Windows and MacOS and emacs.html

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Adjustment: in

  >   When we tell people that Emacs
  > supports running on Windows and MacOS, we should also point out that
  > they are part of the problem we aim to eliminate.

I should have said "injustice" rather than the less-specific word
"problem".

See https://gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html.



-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)