From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ihor Radchenko Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 12:13:54 +0800 Message-ID: <87tuw8kirh.fsf@localhost> References: <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq.ref@Ergus> <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq@Ergus> <83lfhnnew7.fsf@gnu.org> <20200906163418.3p2wuygb4osm76wa@Ergus> <20200906203807.u237c3h22oxwtmba@Ergus> <87wo15adtj.fsf@rabkins.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8174"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: spacibba@aol.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org, Yoni Rabkin Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 08 06:15:39 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kFV2h-00020v-Jn for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 06:15:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37776 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFV2g-0001pO-KV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 00:15:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50280) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFV24-0001KN-Ip for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 00:15:00 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oi1-x235.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::235]:37160) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFV22-0007KT-GV; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 00:15:00 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-oi1-x235.google.com with SMTP id a3so9599090oib.4; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 21:14:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version; bh=8YOvr0AqWRp/3sz04VDZHf4CIhYk0G5JEZgwgNudx44=; b=Ruk1MZz57fxDKL/QDPWxQbuE5zU9ng/6uup6/hZ4B4wsaM9Oddu7hfyr7cTKpJu2Ul NAy7XQKE/Yh9FxJe1Do/cPObgRvzajCZEYA74XvEFU8ZYHTMM4TS9kQx/KGIcN/TtB5Q Vd+fvez7JwJ0k88l+fJmmNPaXzQAvBTRGPdBDgrzZKCoCtqdh4xRLtb6uaDNUKrQc2rD iVOoak27PzXgFpRjr+IPOTxTdwP1LbBFhn3pbxkX4loOqqzWvCKFqQiMtDwlORjnGn6j +WqxWK03ju8PSwhLYRB4+5wGIRm7siSkWG9eO5u93WnDsSe01NwLBJp4qlOVxPW54za/ JEIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=8YOvr0AqWRp/3sz04VDZHf4CIhYk0G5JEZgwgNudx44=; b=nGErLdc4tTY+3jwAuXEYmTZ1vDiE/HwdNON5uo4N+Fg4gksBtfvUUDLxs+OPOqFHz4 KVqt+sV/CB1rXOyInQrojEOCRrpFISnZ8/wW27it01Ogq5FEL/hlQMESO1zkMKC/vrP/ yl0nrhkXQ4tcMc4kP1tsAslC++jXH25WRZ9DynB5PihAHbbcs1sQC4BulEp84CLrspP9 1suTNi4lPcw+Z86MWVXH5zk9yot6+mor4kbowTjx2zs8xZPRmf6gic22wjpOtjXEYiV0 T17Sp4f7nN1lXergBmrW9Wdyd5olzB8ari5qyEnCsS3svi1rVyn9CGtCuUqLNOLPD/gv b75Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5335zzX22BZGLObiyoAmE5c56z0naQaK7g2UWulG/eBRF48UcmMF Y3gPE5i0EDCrQiBKajP5FWibc/LvsXoFk35L X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyqu5yHBTLTcrxb02ezd/yhC0CrPrf2nQ1eddUNOiTKbB0hKeA7qguA+qo3FrbCNshjb9VJbg== X-Received: by 2002:aca:fc95:: with SMTP id a143mr1522346oii.104.1599538495937; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 21:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost ([167.88.61.176]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j1sm1106951otq.76.2020.09.07.21.14.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 07 Sep 2020 21:14:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::235; envelope-from=yantar92@gmail.com; helo=mail-oi1-x235.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254697 Archived-At: > Speaking of which, it would be useful to sit down with a new user just > trying Emacs and see what perse actually complains about or requests. > If several people do this, it could give us useful ideas of what changes > would actually make Emacs more appealing to new users. There are three main things I spotted when guiding a new (non-programmer) user getting started with Emacs (for org-mode): 1. The welcome screen has too much information and new user simply ignores it 2. CUA mode is not offered by default and it is not easy for a new user to know about its existence (because of previous point) 3. File opening dialogue is completely throwing the new user off - people are too used to pop-up file opening dialogue listing all the files. The message area is even not noticed. More details and my suggestion on what can be done in my earlier messages: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-07/msg00335.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-07/msg00359.html I will also attach the message texts below for convenience: Message 1: ---------- While I agree that the existing Emacs defaults are reasonable in general, I do not think that they are good for users coming from an arbitrary background. Emacs is a very versatile tool and can be used for programming, creative writing, research, note-taking, todo management, and many more different fields. I do not think that a single set of defaults can satisfy users aiming for every single use-case. Moreover, changes required to tweak Emacs towards a specific use-case are often much more than "just takes a moment". No surprise that we have a whole spectrum of Emacs startup kits, which offer predefined set of tweaks for different styles of using Emacs. I do think that the existing Emacs defaults are a good starting point for a new user with unknown workflows. They are generic enough to tweak Emacs in any possible direction. However, I believe that it would be a good option to have several sets of defaults, which would better fit some common use-cases, like programming, note-taking, tramp, git, etc. Then, the existing defaults will represent "Generic" use-case, but a new user (who may or may not have programming background) might easily select other set of defaults, which is more suitable for the user's background and expected use-cases. Message 2: ------------ > It would be nice if people came up with > an idea as to how exactly this functionality is to be implemented, > and a > set of better usecases than just 'programming' or 'note-taking' or > 'TRAMP' or 'git'. As one possibility, we can try to extend "A guided tour to Emacs" and make it more interactive. Some thoughts: 1. The link to the tour in the welcome page is not easy to spot for a new user. There is too much information. I might be better to show it by default on first startup after installation. 2. Currently, the tour is one long web-page, which is not very easy to read. I imagine that a presentation-like style (with prev/next buttons on each page) showing one concept at a time would be easier to read. 3. The tour may as well include interactive customisation. For example, 'Migrating to Emacs' part of the tour may as well contain a clickable element to turn on CUA mode by default. 4. The tour might ask user questions if the user is going to work with source code, email, web-browsing, shell, etc. If the user is not planning to work with certain things, they may as well be hidden from menu and customisation pages. By hidden I don't mean completely hidden, but rather "folded" - the user should be able to show them back. For a newcomer, Emacs offers very too many different options. I believe that it makes more sense to restrict the customisation and menus to what user explicitly plans to do. It should be already more than enough to start learning. 5. Similar guided tours may be created for most popular Emacs features: - working with source code - org-mode - version-control and collaboration - remote file access - mail Those tours might also offer some initial customisation, so that the user may disable/enable some features which are not relevant to his/her workflow. The guides should be easily accessible from menu. 6. Some new users might be confused by default file open dialogie involving mode-line. I believe that similarly to CUA-mode, Emacs can emulate more standard approach by offering dired as a way to open files (not enabled by default, but offered as a customisation together with CUA-mode). Best, Ihor Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > If you don't want these features yourself and nobody else in the project > > wants them either, the only way I can think of making a compelling > > argument for people to develop those feature is to ask real people and > > get real responses. I am fairly confident that if you had a testimony or > > user-test from actual people stating that a feature is missing, then > > people here would help develop that feature. > > I agree. Before we put time into developing a feature, we should verify > that many people would like it. > > Speaking of which, it would be useful to sit down with a new user just > trying Emacs and see what perse actually complains about or requests. > If several people do this, it could give us useful ideas of what changes > would actually make Emacs more appealing to new users. > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman > Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) > Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)