From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail
From: Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org>
Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel
Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib?
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2023 16:06:46 +0100
Message-ID: <87ttpsgwhl.fsf@dataswamp.org>
References: <E1qyNS3-0007fw-AS@fencepost.gnu.org>
 <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> <ZUvC5Ep4LJL7oZ3f@ACM>
 <12da6bcb-1818-7fbe-12af-8d4607724332@gutov.dev>
 <CALDnm51qHaPBvCUHiBMiKazqQR4mi10zTAm_E-iCxha7=0ORWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ZUyu7ioP3ef4ndBE@ACM>
 <CALDnm510gPLJc7Sw8+BVkLQ2ZAn7MN56oQX3n_iOeHUqLHZOHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <87il6bt4z0.fsf@yahoo.com>
 <CALDnm534iYFmUQoaCU+Ei_qwkCrox53r3_QALH__B7UFiapqkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALDnm50=0nmm0O9aGkvhaNnPm71xzu0zhr-HDSHKdpPhdJcWWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <s0dttpu1nm8.fsf@yahoo.com>
 <CALDnm50JPw2-eifsC1v4is1GimJnqQQYBemWTfQFuauJTz-mQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8734xetjkk.fsf@yahoo.com>
 <CALDnm52-xR9W0oWEr2aC7gGeGL970ZkOiozjkqf2AWF0nvxtgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <87cywhsrcf.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cywgx1z0.fsf@web.de> <83wmuowwp3.fsf@gnu.org>
 <CALDnm539MrZfnhpaKPUOyyvyowS4dO_vhm+LKobOYpYDEBDcoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <83cywgwg3z.fsf@gnu.org>
 <CALDnm510z_aLFKbDmTWYipZjF_6vd7S0g5JJHJP3ArT=onAYEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <838r74wfdl.fsf@gnu.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214";
	logging-data="31829"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io"
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13)
To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Cancel-Lock: sha1:CaENNYj8j0pU01w7PTXOODhtRM0=
Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Nov 11 16:55:26 2023
Return-path: <emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org>
Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org
Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17])
	by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
	(Exim 4.92)
	(envelope-from <emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org>)
	id 1r1qKT-00085g-55
	for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 16:55:25 +0100
Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org)
	by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1)
	(envelope-from <emacs-devel-bounces@gnu.org>)
	id 1r1qJk-0007JA-GV; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 10:54:40 -0500
Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10])
 by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org>)
 id 1r1pZc-0006aE-Gd
 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 10:07:00 -0500
Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214])
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org>)
 id 1r1pZY-0000Hz-Uq
 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 10:07:00 -0500
Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92)
 (envelope-from <ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org>) id 1r1pZW-0000W0-Oz
 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 16:06:54 +0100
X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/
Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Mail-Copies-To: never
Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214;
 envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io
X-Spam_score_int: -16
X-Spam_score: -1.7
X-Spam_bar: -
X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9,
 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001,
 T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
X-Spam_action: no action
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 11 Nov 2023 10:54:39 -0500
X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." <emacs-devel.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/options/emacs-devel>,
 <mailto:emacs-devel-request@gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel>
List-Post: <mailto:emacs-devel@gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:emacs-devel-request@gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-devel>,
 <mailto:emacs-devel-request@gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org
Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org
Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312585
Archived-At: <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/312585>

We have heard from some programmers and maintainers that they
see the complexity increase as a problem. We have to believe
them, they think like that. And not everyone else has
to agree.

But I have not heard a lot what should be done about it.
Not generally, how to not have that tendency in the future.

And also not what to do in the particular case being
discussed, namely cl-lib, which is already in use to a huge
extent - indeed, that is exactly what is, according to them,
what has created the huge increase in complexity.

I have only heard improve the docstrings, and I think everyone
agree that is a good idea.

But what more? In general, and with respect to cl-lib in
particular? What is the plan, from the people who think it is
a problem?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal