From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs vista build failures Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:35:30 +0900 Message-ID: <87sku5hxl9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <36366a980807101702r5677d096g8e62ef5b3e278868@mail.gmail.com> <4eb0089f0807111217m66d6cf4el777c197c107ce034@mail.gmail.com> <87skug6tq5.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <4eb0089f0807111345h13eccdds9b2cf43370b94074@mail.gmail.com> <4eb0089f0807121340x5e26f6dbve03ef50b238f3a3a@mail.gmail.com> <87k5fph5rh.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080713214648.GB1076@muc.de> <20080714195651.GF3445@muc.de> <487C5FA3.4070603@emf.net> <87zloggji9.fsf@catnip.gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1216534910 24206 80.91.229.12 (20 Jul 2008 06:21:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 06:21:50 +0000 (UTC) Cc: acm@muc.de, lord@emf.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org, drobinow@gmail.com, Miles Bader To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 20 08:22:38 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KKSJZ-0006Zh-KB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:22:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55167 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KKSIg-0007xq-Az for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 02:21:42 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KKSIb-0007xl-Oh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 02:21:37 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KKSIX-0007v1-M1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 02:21:36 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=34293 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KKSIX-0007um-GI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 02:21:33 -0400 Original-Received: from mx20.gnu.org ([199.232.41.8]:32586) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KKSIP-0007Yq-0k; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 02:21:25 -0400 Original-Received: from mtps02.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KKSIJ-0002BQ-Uw; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 02:21:20 -0400 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mtps02.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id B72AF7FFC; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:21:03 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4C9591A25C3; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:35:30 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: VM ?bug? under XEmacs 21.5.21 (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-kernel: by mx20.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:101010 Archived-At: Richard M Stallman writes: > > I tried at one point to convince XFree86 to support the GNU > > configuration spec. I even found a volunteer to implement that as a > > wrapper around their existing configuration mechanism. But they did > > not consider such compatibility very important, and I don't think they > > installed this wrapper. > > Note that the current standard X distribution, Xorg, now uses gnu auto* > tools for configuration. > > That is good news, but the general problem remains > as far as I know. Has there been a general move towards > supporting the GNU configure and build specs? That would make > it much easier to build a whole system from source. It depends on what you mean by "general move" and "whole system". For example, the 'BSDs continue to use their traditional hierarchy of Make include files. Presumbly you mean to exclude those systems from "general", however. Regarding the "system", among the programs I use that are written in C for the GNU system, almost all use the autotools for configuration and make to run the build. But dissatisfaction with autotools and even make runs throughout the "open source" community (ie, the community that uses free software licenses for whatever reason, not limited to principled support for freedom).[1] While I don't know off hand of any C programs that use other build control tools, few of the scripting languages and web frameworks do. Python has its setup.py and dist-tools, I believe Ruby and Perl have similar build systems, Haskell has its Cabal, and there are a number of more general rivals to the autotools such as Scons which are attracting attention. These days more and more important software is written in languages like Python (eg, bzr, Emacs's recently anointed distributed version control system) and Perl (eg, debbugs, Emacs's recently anointed bug tracking system). I don't know about bzr offhand, but debbugs includes separate Perl scripts "build", "clean", and "debian/debbugsconfig", as well as the Makefile which seems to be used only to install the package. Not to mention that every package management system has its own standards, usually supported by utilities like Debian's debhelper. If in "system" you intend to include such applications, then I would have to guess that programs that don't conform to GNU standards for configuration and build are proliferating rapidly. I also know of several free software programs for Mac OS X which presumably could be ported to GNUStep, but AFAIK are dependent on Apple's proprietary Xcode tool (a build manager like Scons, or maybe even an IDE comparable to Eclipse without the extensibility). Thus they might require substantial extra effort in porting. BTW, I haven't used Scons, but every time XEmacs has a build issue somebody brings it up. The Scons blurb says: What is SCons? SCons is an Open Source software construction tool---that is, a next-generation build tool. Think of SCons as an improved, cross-platform substitute for the classic Make utility with integrated functionality similar to autoconf/automake and compiler caches such as ccache. In short, SCons is an easier, more reliable and faster way to build software. There seem to be a fair number who have drunk of the Scons Kool-Aid and say it lives up to its advertising. Footnotes: [1] In case it's not clear, I mention the open source community not to identify it with the free software community, but because not all useful free software originates within the free software community, and where such software is useful but nonconformant to GNU standards, you may need to spend effort adapting it.