From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Scrollbar thumbs Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:07:00 +0100 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <87skctklaz.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <03A2EC54153A4BB1AAE5AF2D2E2B7264@editkapc> <87aaz3jgkp.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <4AF1D60C.6080005@swipnet.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1257437629 25811 80.91.229.12 (5 Nov 2009 16:13:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 16:13:49 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 05 17:13:42 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1N64xx-0003ly-IX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:13:41 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46035 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1N64xw-0000ne-Pw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:13:40 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1N64sJ-0006fw-47 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:07:51 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1N64sE-0006dc-0Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:07:50 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=58295 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1N64sD-0006dY-S4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:07:45 -0500 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:45449) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1N64sD-0005ZX-Bc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:07:45 -0500 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1N64s6-0000Ql-7s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:07:38 +0100 Original-Received: from p5b2c1c01.dip.t-dialin.net ([91.44.28.1]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:07:38 +0100 Original-Received: from dak by p5b2c1c01.dip.t-dialin.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:07:38 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 56 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: p5b2c1c01.dip.t-dialin.net X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:SsjDCFRZ/PBmJ9cIkZKIf9E/D18= X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:116663 "grischka" writes: > Seen that nowadays the gui-dyslexics Could you look up complex words in the dictionary before you use them? It might help to make your postings less inflammatory. > tend to become a more rare species dyslexia is not coupled to species. > and the generation simply tends to loose the ability to understand While you have the dictionary at hand, look up "loose". > that a non-linear, moreover non-contiguous And "contiguous". > and even non-complementary And "complementary". > geometrical relation between scrollbar and scrollable content can be > anything else than an accumulation of design flaws. The "design flaw" is that Emacs has a variable line height. An editor is primarily supposed to deal with lines of text, not with continuous graphical panes. And previous to Emacs 21, Emacs only dealt with lines of text of constant height. Previous to Emacs 19, the lines corresponded 1:1 to the screen lines. None of those bear any relation to the fact that an editor can show areas that are not part of the content (most trivially for an empty file), and that should reflect on the scrollbar appearance. A web browser will just remove the scrollbar altogether. But that is just feasible for static content, and when the changing of the layout when a scrollbar is added and removed is not disconcerting. Also, defining some model of correctness and then adhering to it needs to take interactive responsiveness into consideration. The typical web document does not contain millions of lines, but Emacs must be able to deal with navigating and changing stuff in documents of that size. Anyway: if you want to achieve something, chances are that choosing a manner of correspondence that sports a less condescending appearance might be beneficial. Chances are that people working decades in a particular area of expertise have all that time just been missing the advice of a complete newcomer. And if you are convinced of the opposite, common sense should tell you that such a severe case should need rather more than less diplomacy to deal with. -- David Kastrup