From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: W Dan Meyer Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 22:23:39 +0100 Message-ID: <87sk4t5kmc.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87d3w2ncqs.fsf_-_@lola.goethe.zz> <87iq5py7xk.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <874oh9jwqw.fsf@stupidchicken.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1276292836 22625 80.91.229.12 (11 Jun 2010 21:47:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 21:47:16 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Chong Yidong , David Kastrup , Eli Zaretskii , James Cloos , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Lennart Borgman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jun 11 23:47:13 2010 connect(): No such file or directory Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ONC4E-0004H1-AN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 11 Jun 2010 23:47:10 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55035 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ONC4D-000141-Kg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 11 Jun 2010 17:47:09 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=55591 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ONBhn-000641-32 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Jun 2010 17:24:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ONBhl-0000vW-Mr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Jun 2010 17:23:59 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ww0-f41.google.com ([74.125.82.41]:45447) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ONBhl-0000vP-Gh; Fri, 11 Jun 2010 17:23:57 -0400 Original-Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34so1303103wwb.0 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:23:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:cc:subject:references :date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=folrcBzMeu7v9i62WpdK8nRmoX/jA1jqZkIdbj4feEA=; b=BxzZs00Lg05bsJFrosfEcYCVRFtiXRrGRRN3XiRzG4mid84kxym7KxX0Z2JtDKqx67 /5xFoTUu+1+pQeW6WqG7vPcz+xiAizZbcN3brXZoqTfrPYxg+Sjo72+imcQDAYOqvMyy 04gDJ91qAJCnvMUnQi+gG1zOQIX6hc82Ba0zQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=NVokS/1rq46RSzBSJ2PKnBQ+o94yJlP5SN8sNg87NefjW76Wh6X0eTZgB33XFa0B4E JudOUUqswhrzq3GxfbXFf8TmRTILOD/9kBMjK5xegRQ1YU+M3sGE0RDkTuFN+A9/gsQq pmhZdl6o+WFvW9qLW2ly+HRvS8qM7DKFMgTd8= Original-Received: by 10.227.128.85 with SMTP id j21mr2596191wbs.0.1276291433443; Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from spec-desktop.specuu.com (host86-137-132-199.range86-137.btcentralplus.com [86.137.132.199]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p17sm4709715wbe.8.2010.06.11.14.23.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:23:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Lennart Borgman's message of "Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:04:28 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 17:46:59 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:125771 Archived-At: Lennart Borgman writes: >> >> One possibility is that editors intended specifically for bidi, such as >> native-language Hebrew or Arabic apps, have a convention that vim, >> gedit, etc have not taken up. =C2=A0So, could anyone who has experience = with >> such apps speak up? > > > Looking around on the internet (not being a bidi reader) it seems to > me that it is mostly a programming mistake to let the arrow keys > change direction. (Somehow maybe also from a beginners perspective the > right arrow might mean "go forward".) However for someone editing > texts in some way this is awkward IMO. Here are some links: > > - http://www.sfc.wide.ad.jp/~akihiko/java/jdk1.2beta3/docs/guide/2d/spec/= j2d-fonts.fm1.html > (look for "moving the caret"). > > - http://wiki.sibawayhi.org/keyboard - READING IS NOT CURSORING! > > - http://bugs.dojotoolkit.org/ticket/8037 (just a short complaints > about cursor changing their ways) > > - http://www.qsm.co.il/Hebrew/logicUI22.htm - "The logical approach is > sometimes preferred by implementors, mostly because its implementation > is easier. This is not a recommended solution." Nice reesearch. I agree with those findings. For me it looks all right to have those forward-backward bindings. For few reasons: - C-{f,b} is used mostly by experienced Emacs users, if they don't like they will most likely change it (I am sure you can contradict it, I have never learnt to use them) - Obviously it was said before, forward-backward means forward-backward not left-right.=20 - We have a choice, we can use C-{f,b} to preserve the logical direction, plus we add the functonality to rebind it if is needed. Question if that should be mode, global state and a set of functions - if it will not work as expected (I think there must be an agreement how the programs behave in the right-left direction over the world), we will get kind e-mails saying so (I hope kind ;) ) - everything dependes on a person, if somebody is not a native speaker/writer in such language and writes a letter probably it will be cumbersome to use reversed bindings, it is easier to read the text read-left than swapping keys (muscle memory, and the fact one is forced to read, it cannot be done in a different way). =20 So from my point of view maybe good idea is to: - Let the user swap arrows too (or the underlaying implementation, well it can be done by binding just different symbol), - Find a person which uses bidi, not in Emacs but generally and ask if he/she would prefered this behaviour.=20 - Switching even OpenOffice to the right-left mode and check the default Just mine 2 cents. Wojciech