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From: W Dan Meyer <wojciech.meyer@googlemail.com>
To: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
Cc: Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com>, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>,
	Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>,
	emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 22:23:39 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87sk4t5kmc.fsf@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilLePN6MsaICilUprj27k8sTp2xyq_jSeoq8YmG@mail.gmail.com> (Lennart Borgman's message of "Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:04:28 +0200")

Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> One possibility is that editors intended specifically for bidi, such as
>> native-language Hebrew or Arabic apps, have a convention that vim,
>> gedit, etc have not taken up.  So, could anyone who has experience with
>> such apps speak up?
>
>
> Looking around on the internet (not being a bidi reader) it seems to
> me that it is mostly a programming mistake to let the arrow keys
> change direction. (Somehow maybe also from a beginners perspective the
> right arrow might mean "go forward".) However for someone editing
> texts in some way this is awkward IMO. Here are some links:
>
> - http://www.sfc.wide.ad.jp/~akihiko/java/jdk1.2beta3/docs/guide/2d/spec/j2d-fonts.fm1.html
> (look for "moving the caret").
>
> - http://wiki.sibawayhi.org/keyboard - READING IS NOT CURSORING!
>
> - http://bugs.dojotoolkit.org/ticket/8037 (just a short complaints
> about cursor changing their ways)
>
> - http://www.qsm.co.il/Hebrew/logicUI22.htm - "The logical approach is
> sometimes preferred by implementors, mostly because its implementation
> is easier. This is not a recommended solution."

Nice reesearch.

I agree with those findings.

For me it looks all right to have those forward-backward bindings. For
few reasons:

- C-{f,b} is used mostly by experienced Emacs users, if they don't like
  they will most likely change it (I am sure you can contradict it, I
  have never learnt to use them)

- Obviously it was said before, forward-backward means forward-backward
  not left-right. 

- We have a choice, we can use C-{f,b} to preserve the logical
  direction, plus we add the functonality to rebind it if is
  needed. Question if that should be mode, global state and a set of
  functions

- if it will not work as expected (I think there must be an agreement
  how the programs behave in the right-left direction over the world),
  we will get kind e-mails saying so (I hope kind ;) )

- everything dependes on a person, if somebody is not a native
  speaker/writer in such language and writes a letter probably it will be
  cumbersome to use reversed bindings, it is easier to read the text
  read-left than swapping keys (muscle memory, and the fact one is forced
  to read, it cannot be done in a different way).
 
So from my point of view maybe good idea is to:

- Let the user swap arrows too (or the underlaying implementation, well it
  can be done by binding just different symbol),

- Find a person which uses bidi, not in Emacs but generally and ask if
  he/she would prefered this behaviour. 

- Switching even OpenOffice to the right-left mode and check the default

Just mine 2 cents.

Wojciech




  reply	other threads:[~2010-06-11 21:23 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 158+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2010-06-07  1:05 Performance Stefan Monnier
2010-06-07 13:35 ` Performance Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-07 14:22   ` arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p (was: Performance) David Kastrup
2010-06-07 14:39     ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-07 15:01       ` arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p David Kastrup
2010-06-07 23:00         ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-07 15:34       ` arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p (was: Performance) Uday S Reddy
2010-06-11 14:12       ` arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p Chong Yidong
2010-06-11 15:47         ` Stefan Monnier
2010-06-11 17:12           ` Drew Adams
2010-06-11 19:34             ` Uday S Reddy
2010-06-11 20:16               ` Drew Adams
2010-06-11 21:24                 ` Uday S Reddy
2010-06-11 22:46                   ` Drew Adams
2010-06-12 10:28                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 10:20                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 14:27                   ` Drew Adams
2010-06-12 10:12               ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 10:00             ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 10:17               ` David Kastrup
2010-06-12 10:38                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 14:26               ` Drew Adams
2010-06-12 16:10                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 17:12                   ` Drew Adams
2010-06-12 17:25                     ` Lennart Borgman
2010-06-12 18:38                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 18:49                         ` Lennart Borgman
2010-06-12 19:38                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 19:51                             ` Lennart Borgman
2010-06-12 18:01                     ` Uday S Reddy
2010-06-12 19:16                       ` Drew Adams
2010-06-12 18:49                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 19:19                       ` Drew Adams
2010-06-12 22:57                         ` Davis Herring
2010-06-11 19:45           ` Chong Yidong
2010-06-11 19:50             ` Chong Yidong
2010-06-12 10:17               ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-13 18:08               ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 10:14             ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12  9:16           ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12  9:34             ` David Kastrup
2010-06-12 10:30               ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 20:54                 ` David Kastrup
2010-06-12 14:26             ` Drew Adams
2010-06-12 20:31               ` Stefan Monnier
2010-06-11 16:29         ` James Cloos
2010-06-11 17:09           ` Lennart Borgman
2010-06-12  9:27             ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 14:49               ` Lennart Borgman
2010-06-12 16:11                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 16:18                   ` Lennart Borgman
2010-06-12 18:33                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 18:58                       ` Lennart Borgman
2010-06-12 19:34                         ` Lennart Borgman
2010-06-12 19:58                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 20:26                             ` Lennart Borgman
2010-06-12 21:08                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 21:20                                 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-06-12 19:55                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 20:07                           ` Lennart Borgman
2010-06-12 21:05                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 21:16                               ` Lennart Borgman
2010-06-13  3:52                                 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-06-13  7:53                               ` David Kastrup
2010-06-11 17:37           ` Chong Yidong
2010-06-11 18:04             ` Lennart Borgman
2010-06-11 21:23               ` W Dan Meyer [this message]
2010-06-12  5:40                 ` Miles Bader
2010-06-12 10:48               ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 14:57                 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-06-12 10:02             ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 10:22               ` James Cloos
2010-06-12  9:24           ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 10:17             ` James Cloos
2010-06-12 12:03               ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 12:40                 ` James Cloos
2010-06-12 20:37               ` Stefan Monnier
2010-06-12 16:36           ` Andreas Schwab
2010-06-12 16:57             ` Current head won't build Randal L. Schwartz
2010-06-12 17:24               ` Chong Yidong
2010-06-12 18:55                 ` Randal L. Schwartz
2010-06-12 19:54                   ` Juri Linkov
2010-06-12 20:13                     ` Randal L. Schwartz
2010-06-14 15:43                       ` Juri Linkov
2010-06-15 14:50                         ` Randal L. Schwartz
2010-06-15 18:28                           ` Andreas Schwab
2010-06-15 18:31                             ` Randal L. Schwartz
2010-06-15 19:25                               ` Andreas Schwab
2010-06-15 19:38                                 ` Teemu Likonen
2010-06-15 19:43                                   ` Andreas Schwab
2010-06-15 19:54                                   ` Randal L. Schwartz
2010-06-16  3:28                                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-06-16  8:21                                       ` Andreas Schwab
2010-06-16  9:47                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-06-16 12:23                                         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-06-16 12:36                                           ` Andreas Schwab
2010-06-18  6:05                                             ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-06-18  8:20                                               ` Andreas Schwab
2010-06-18  9:04                                                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-06-18  9:27                                                   ` Andreas Schwab
2010-06-18 10:41                                                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-06-18 11:33                                                       ` Andreas Schwab
2010-06-16 12:44                                           ` Andreas Schwab
2010-06-16 13:12                                             ` Randal L. Schwartz
2010-06-16 13:17                                               ` Andreas Schwab
2010-06-16 13:21                                                 ` Randal L. Schwartz
2010-06-16 14:00                                                   ` Andreas Schwab
2010-06-16 14:18                                                     ` Randal L. Schwartz
2010-06-16 14:25                                                       ` Andreas Schwab
2010-06-16 14:29                                                         ` Randal L. Schwartz
2010-06-16 14:58                                                           ` Andreas Schwab
2010-06-16 15:09                                                             ` Randal L. Schwartz
2010-06-16 15:51                                                               ` Andreas Schwab
2010-06-16 13:29                                             ` Randal L. Schwartz
2010-06-16 14:14                                               ` Andreas Schwab
2010-06-16 18:32                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2010-06-16 18:43                                                 ` Randal L. Schwartz
2010-06-18  6:04                                             ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-06-12 16:41           ` arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p Andreas Schwab
2010-06-12 23:34             ` James Cloos
2010-06-11 17:12         ` James Cloos
2010-06-12  5:43           ` Miles Bader
2010-06-12  9:09             ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 11:13               ` Uday S Reddy
2010-06-12 12:00                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 14:26               ` Drew Adams
2010-06-12 16:14                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 22:27               ` Kenichi Handa
2010-06-13  3:02                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-13 10:24                   ` Kenichi Handa
2010-06-13 15:28                     ` Lennart Borgman
2010-06-13 17:20                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-13 18:03                         ` Lennart Borgman
2010-06-12 10:03           ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 10:23             ` James Cloos
2010-06-12 14:27               ` Drew Adams
2010-06-12  9:11         ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-07 15:19     ` Stefan Monnier
2010-06-07 16:08       ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-06-07 16:21         ` David Kastrup
2010-06-07 17:25           ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-06-07 18:26             ` Andreas Schwab
2010-06-07 19:24               ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-06-07 19:57                 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-06-07 20:17                   ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-06-07 22:32                     ` Davis Herring
2010-06-07 22:40                       ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-06-08  0:15                         ` Stefan Monnier
2010-06-08 13:51                           ` Uday S Reddy
2010-06-08 20:25                             ` Stefan Monnier
2010-06-08 21:07                               ` Uday S Reddy
2010-06-07 23:19                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-08  7:58     ` Miles Bader
2010-06-07 15:33   ` Performance Stefan Monnier
2010-06-10 10:30 ` Performance Kenichi Handa
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2010-06-12 20:56 arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p grischka
2010-06-12 21:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-06-12 21:26   ` grischka

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