From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: taylanbayirli@gmail.com (Taylan Ulrich =?utf-8?Q?Bay=C4=B1rl=C4=B1?= =?utf-8?Q?=2FKammer?=) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [PATCH] Add shell-quasiquote. Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 10:38:44 +0200 Message-ID: <87si56j5nv.fsf@T420.taylan> References: <87si59wj42.fsf@T420.taylan> <878u6znii9.fsf@T420.taylan> <836123gfh2.fsf@gnu.org> <87r3krm0t3.fsf@T420.taylan> <5624F66F.1030600@yandex.ru> <87io63lzkg.fsf@T420.taylan> <562508B7.3020202@yandex.ru> <876122n5v3.fsf@T420.taylan> <22053.50324.60123.654292@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d1waknl1.fsf@T420.taylan> <87oafugeia.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1445330340 7447 80.91.229.3 (20 Oct 2015 08:39:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 08:39:00 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 20 10:39:00 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoSRc-0008B5-4X for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 10:38:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44559 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoSRb-0000Ys-Bg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 04:38:55 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:56741) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoSRW-0000Xx-UN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 04:38:51 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoSRS-0007cq-OT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 04:38:50 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wi0-x22a.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a]:34324) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoSRS-0007cf-Hz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 04:38:46 -0400 Original-Received: by wikq8 with SMTP id q8so35000885wik.1 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 01:38:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent :mime-version:content-type; bh=aaOXYkGKIrLzDnT6rN9O/MrikHwI/oOIfQideaQKxNc=; b=t+PebPFVMM0udIRhvpCwZgMflA/4ZZUWAUJ9+ioRjxEhUqfo4RkhL0L/jOz0Pj2yNQ u7Bxjj550R5lBleE5pVhSOsDX+yTbxDRs47zUWHTsTtdeu1Bfa3rRBTKhprwhAXvldhu 3B+XABi5PXoYYhOuWJb4q7XDguojsNd0AEZbsNGg7oQF2avY9S7HJZ/sNlFznbOm7Hvt e1Rq4zRfN1c9paqE1LP3iuDlnZoDnErXQlWA2EcIYJ8dBaOEFccipyV/avZGBngvDJfQ tkedarQOCAH9dhDFgs1t7/R3e7veRh3OzFizVXxtYACp3gnYGJzRrouPuSCvN29rPI1b t1kQ== X-Received: by 10.194.236.3 with SMTP id uq3mr2590290wjc.22.1445330326010; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 01:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from T420.taylan ([2a02:908:c32:4740:221:ccff:fe66:68f0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x9sm2334667wjf.44.2015.10.20.01.38.45 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 20 Oct 2015 01:38:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (John Wiegley's message of "Tue, 20 Oct 2015 01:17:21 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:192167 Archived-At: "John Wiegley" writes: >>>>>> David Kastrup writes: > >> You don't need to speak in riddles. I am quite used to seeing my name >> explicitly written in such contexts. > > I've found your contributions to be quite helpful on the whole, David. > > Lately I've heard and read many things about emacs-devel's "culture" and how > it stifles newcomers. This is something to take seriously, but I don't think > the issue should be over-simplified just to find a place to put blame. > > We're a lot of people. We have a lot of experiences. This is no one's full- > time job. We all communicate differently. > > Given those truths: as soon as the number of people involved becomes >large, > any perception you choose to adopt of such a group will generally be true in > some ways, and false in several other ways. > > Some of the concrete problems I've heard about that could be meaningfully > addressed are: > > 1. Some patches die in the bug tracker. They get submitted; the authors > respond to the criticism; but there is no closure. This gives people the > impression that their efforts are being wasted on Emacs development, so > they move elsewhere. > > 2. Sometimes people can be abrasive. This isn't something you can solve by > mandate, or by posting a code of conduct. It requires a willingness on > the part of participants to assume the best of others, and not expect > them to do all the work revealing it. > > There could be things we might do here, like making the list passively > moderated so we can silence egregious posters. But I haven't seen > anything yet to warrant this type of response. > > 3. Newcomers don't understand our culture. If you've grown up in the fast- > paced GitHub world of one button PRs and brief discussions on Twitter, > the culture and pace of emacs-devel may well shock you. Some of us are > OLD, and we like our lawns kid-free a goodly part of the time. > > Now that is no excuse for bad manners, but it does mean we don't just > "hop to it" when a shiny toy comes along. Be patient, give us time. And > maybe, if your patch is withering on the vine, remind someone? > > I think we have good people, who pay attention to meaningful issues. Not > everything we do needs to be instantly appealing to those unfamiliar with our > history of development. But if it's needlessly off-putting, that should be > brought up and remedied too. > > John For those interested in this topic, please also read my response to another mail by John on the bug#21702 thread. I'm afraid there was a big misunderstanding in, at least, the reasons for my frustration. I don't know whether the points mentioned above (people being used to *faster* paced communication than e-d) apply to other cases of contributor frustration, but I suspect that it's a red herring. Taylan