From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Bastien Subject: Re: [POLL] Should Org tempo be enabled by default? (expand templates thru e.g. " References: <87lgd671k7.fsf@bzg.fr> <87o9i2p9qq.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87k1sq6znz.fsf@bzg.fr> <871seyp6fr.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <874lju6tap.fsf@bzg.fr> <87bme1y7ft.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43972) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fCvM0-0005RC-VT for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:03:38 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fCvLz-0007s5-IC for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:03:37 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87bme1y7ft.fsf@gmail.com> (Tim Cross's message of "Mon, 30 Apr 2018 08:27:34 +1000") List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" To: Tim Cross Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, Nicolas Goaziou Hi Tim, thanks for your thorough and balanced feedback. Tim Cross writes: > There is no solution which will make everyone happy. However, as a long > term org user who hopes to continue using org for many more years, I > tend to come down on the side of whatever will make org easier to > maintain in the long term. For org-tempo, Rasmus wrote it so I'm inclined to listen quite carefully at his opinion. > I think org itself should provide a very stable core and avoid > incorporating too many add on enhancements. I agree too. But outline would have stayed something that nobody cares about until Org came, enhancing the outline experience. And I guess tempo.el, something that RMS wrote in 1995, would stay unknown until more users are exposed through it via org-tempo.el... So I don't see org-tempo.el as something that adds extra burden: it is a reasonable reuse of some core (underknown) Emacs functionality. > Consequently, I'm not going to enable org-tempo, instead going for > re-training of my fingers to use the new C-c ' binding. You certainly mean C-c C-, :) > So in basic terms, I agree with Nicholas' position. Having said that, I > do feel he is being optimistic/pragmatic and Bastien's concerns are very > valid. To give some context: I've run a few Emacs friendly workshops in Paris (France) since the last few months. French readers can check them here: https://www.emacs-doctor.com/emacs-paris-user-group/ All the discussions have been really eye-opening to me in terms of usability. I could not believe Emacs users with 10 years of Emacs-fu would not know text-scale-increase, or M- in Org's table, or whatever. They could not believe I was ignoring X, Y, Z. And *many* of them were so frustrated with Org's installation experience and some "missing" features from one version to another... hearing these complaints face to face face something. Yes, from an individual point of view, adding (require 'org-tempo) is nothing but I've tangible feedback of the pain such change can induce for other users. Here is what the experience can look like: - Upgrading Emacs or Org (hurray!!) - Trying to hit