From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 15:29:35 -0500 Message-ID: <87sgg2p8eo.fsf@red-bean.com> References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> Reply-To: Karl Fogel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="92299"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: excalamus@tutanota.com, colinetnathan98@gmail.com, andreas.roehler@online.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 14 22:30:33 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jZKUz-000NwB-7a for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 22:30:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33020 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZKUy-0007qB-7a for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 16:30:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40412) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZKU7-0007Ah-Mj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 16:29:39 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oi1-x235.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::235]:43369) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZKU6-0006zu-RX; Thu, 14 May 2020 16:29:39 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-oi1-x235.google.com with SMTP id i22so197076oik.10; Thu, 14 May 2020 13:29:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bbnowMHvC0E5KoAU6I81QDQxKJq7EEeDEplo5v2Qzgs=; b=nAOYECFDRl2D8Ol8MWPCP3bLAcFzZ6jgUalP4xyI7RfnjPstH38TxRazoCDG4+Ekyz pVdMnj7iSYUQszvsvCqEfmmO2FQph4me0IGshjCudSdR80Whxg2963vKsaQnivltfTFb re4Io3aIipL05TNjOR/hOKBLxLzpUzUGdKnSFXme1w+6QffJstMjt9l5IIjyT7YVJkNP e3dIyMQK4tYb2YQ/hgrBlxfrwZhsRLd+lQpzgzXFLWEU9FB989d+VlmI6PMhP7u0o+zX wDWQylg9pI/YXJUGk1eV74dPXvEW4yaH30MatcnJakhse8SWiw51okrP4Ys3SK6Tpqkf 7YUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to :date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=bbnowMHvC0E5KoAU6I81QDQxKJq7EEeDEplo5v2Qzgs=; b=nAVgUyx6iSzlrf37PGf0NKh0l3x+H+CFyFDeelwyrY7sh4LGuWXJtvH+vrMOqoQ2iW syy36RGpcE9PIpv7qyCnxf8omFAoLNA71hRnVCqQRxqZTXzr+sj9IV8onv1ZRrmSlr8e nBpbszGMBN7ONqHqHutM7xOOolDT4+f8TPs0+toSf/4dJRIGe/EADFuWDT70JRLdofPj 37APJQ1GDIHtH6twaizIuDQ+olEW/EVZuTahE2s39GSxXt0hWX4Sakpfzx6t2rtPrZwe Pd9/buTnFxXp8o1HWfINB9FjLIqCVrPZ2HJ/unlV3a+Pj5ggm1WfV6hRfpMrwynpDb97 WuLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZnC1f31AQIOfDt4PBPtUkZNsMlOgEKnY41l1IngZdhexebIwDD p36nRtNyhB6nHujEaBWGenI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKrolGyIUZLcYfyHdh0fUry1v+KntVevp+hwxLjU4GPHaf3H9OPrOIslJiVdTOTTjIs158BzA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:49:: with SMTP id v9mr30915082oic.41.1589488177063; Thu, 14 May 2020 13:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from floss (99-112-125-163.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net. [99.112.125.163]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i10sm6956oos.28.2020.05.14.13.29.35 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 14 May 2020 13:29:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Thu, 14 May 2020 01:08:36 -0400") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::235; envelope-from=kfogel@gmail.com; helo=mail-oi1-x235.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250293 Archived-At: On 14 May 2020, Richard Stallman wrote: > > So I suggest that GNU Emacs's raison d'=C3=AAtre is to be the text > > editor that best rewards sustained user investment. > >I would say that this is one of the virtues of Emacs -- but I would >not call this the raison d'=C3=AAtre. > >I think that the investment needed is a downside. The upside is the >return you get for that investment. If we could make Emacs give you >the return without the investment, that would be even better -- but we >don't know how to do that ;-(. I think that is impossible in the general case, and would therefore not be = a good goal to aim for. Naturally, Emacs should give whatever returns it can give that don't requir= e investment. But that just gets us to the point of making tradeoff decisi= ons. Emacs has already consumed a lot of the available space in that "for = free" region -- I'm sure there's still some space left to grab, and no one = here would argue against grabbing it, but those are the easy calls. They a= ren't controversial and they don't require much discussion. The principle I suggest -- calling it a "raison d'=C3=AAtre" may be too str= ong -- is for guiding the decisions that *can* be controversial because the= y involve tradeoffs. This is most decisions. Specifically, I'm arguing against assuming that making Emacs easy for new u= sers is, in itself, a good idea. It's really only half an idea. Discussio= ns about how to make Emacs "easy" for "new users" can only be productive if= we know where we're trying to bring those users and what level of investme= nt we expect from them, and if we weigh the costs as well as the benefits o= f changes that favor newcomers (when those changes have negative consequenc= es for experts -- i.e., when those changes are not in the "free space", whi= ch most changes aren't). (I wish I'd kept notes from the in-person Emacs teaching I've done over the= years. Having such notes would be useful right now. Instead I must rely = on memory of repeated experiences.) Best regards, -Karl