From: Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com>
To: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
Cc: excalamus@tutanota.com, colinetnathan98@gmail.com,
andreas.roehler@online.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre
Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 15:29:35 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87sgg2p8eo.fsf@red-bean.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <E1jZ66m-00069g-5I@fencepost.gnu.org> (Richard Stallman's message of "Thu, 14 May 2020 01:08:36 -0400")
On 14 May 2020, Richard Stallman wrote:
> > So I suggest that GNU Emacs's raison d'être is to be the text
> > editor that best rewards sustained user investment.
>
>I would say that this is one of the virtues of Emacs -- but I would
>not call this the raison d'être.
>
>I think that the investment needed is a downside. The upside is the
>return you get for that investment. If we could make Emacs give you
>the return without the investment, that would be even better -- but we
>don't know how to do that ;-(.
I think that is impossible in the general case, and would therefore not be a good goal to aim for.
Naturally, Emacs should give whatever returns it can give that don't require investment. But that just gets us to the point of making tradeoff decisions. Emacs has already consumed a lot of the available space in that "for free" region -- I'm sure there's still some space left to grab, and no one here would argue against grabbing it, but those are the easy calls. They aren't controversial and they don't require much discussion.
The principle I suggest -- calling it a "raison d'être" may be too strong -- is for guiding the decisions that *can* be controversial because they involve tradeoffs. This is most decisions.
Specifically, I'm arguing against assuming that making Emacs easy for new users is, in itself, a good idea. It's really only half an idea. Discussions about how to make Emacs "easy" for "new users" can only be productive if we know where we're trying to bring those users and what level of investment we expect from them, and if we weigh the costs as well as the benefits of changes that favor newcomers (when those changes have negative consequences for experts -- i.e., when those changes are not in the "free space", which most changes aren't).
(I wish I'd kept notes from the in-person Emacs teaching I've done over the years. Having such notes would be useful right now. Instead I must rely on memory of repeated experiences.)
Best regards,
-Karl
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-05-14 20:29 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 277+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-05-08 8:26 Making Emacs popular again with a video Nathan Colinet
2020-05-08 10:39 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-10 20:48 ` Nathan Colinet
2020-05-08 10:41 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-10 16:18 ` Nathan Colinet
2020-05-08 11:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-10 20:32 ` Nathan Colinet
2020-05-11 22:59 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-09 7:50 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-10 20:57 ` Nathan Colinet
2020-05-12 3:12 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-12 7:04 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-12 13:59 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-12 14:47 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-12 16:08 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-13 4:01 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-13 8:49 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-14 5:14 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-14 10:22 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-14 10:55 ` Robert Pluim
2020-05-15 3:25 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15 7:55 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-15 10:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-15 10:43 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-15 11:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-15 19:15 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-05-15 18:41 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-05-22 19:09 ` Ben McGinnes
[not found] ` <E1jcLVP-0003SB-II@fencepost.gnu.org>
2020-05-24 19:16 ` Ben McGinnes
2020-05-14 14:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-14 7:38 ` Tim Cross
2020-05-14 7:51 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-14 14:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-14 15:36 ` Tim Cross
2020-05-13 10:43 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-12 8:23 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-13 3:55 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-13 8:18 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-13 10:53 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-13 16:20 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-14 2:18 ` (emacs) Intro [was: Making Emacs popular again with a video] excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-14 12:04 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-14 21:31 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-15 0:46 ` Dmitry Gutov
[not found] ` <d28fe30d-c192-8022-b758-d8b7019e49b5@yandex.ru-M7KnL6R----2>
2020-05-17 19:11 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-19 14:14 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
[not found] ` <d66793e5-07f9-4dd9-928d-e7e8c342b781@default>
[not found] ` <M7iByNw--3-2@tutanota.com>
2020-05-21 18:18 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
[not found] ` <M7sSK-m--3-2@tutanota.com-M7sSUVm--3-2>
2020-05-28 1:21 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-28 7:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-28 7:41 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-28 10:23 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-29 2:39 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-29 7:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-29 7:40 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-29 15:14 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-30 1:39 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-14 22:14 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-15 3:17 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15 6:36 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-12 12:57 ` GNU Emacs raison d'etre excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-13 16:18 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-13 16:28 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-13 19:39 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-13 20:05 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-13 20:52 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-13 22:04 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-13 22:55 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-14 4:56 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-14 16:37 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-14 22:11 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-15 3:16 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-15 21:42 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-15 22:14 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-16 0:03 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-15 22:41 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-20 21:47 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-20 22:35 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-21 0:35 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-16 2:43 ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-05-18 3:46 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-18 11:26 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-16 8:05 ` Yuri Khan
2020-05-16 10:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16 10:46 ` Yuri Khan
2020-05-17 1:28 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 1:39 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 1:40 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 1:59 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17 2:52 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-17 9:32 ` Joost Kremers
2020-05-17 11:07 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-18 3:43 ` transient Richard Stallman
2020-05-18 6:58 ` transient Joost Kremers
2020-05-18 11:29 ` transient Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-18 18:41 ` transient Howard Melman
2020-05-18 19:35 ` transient John Yates
2020-05-18 19:57 ` transient Howard Melman
2020-05-19 5:38 ` transient Drew Adams
2020-05-19 14:00 ` transient Arthur Miller
2020-05-20 3:14 ` transient Michael Heerdegen
[not found] ` <87tuztngxr.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
2020-06-03 4:32 ` bug#39902: transient Michael Heerdegen
2020-06-03 22:49 ` bug#39902: 28.0.50; Marking in dired with active region Juri Linkov
2020-06-04 12:31 ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-06-04 22:18 ` Juri Linkov
2020-05-19 22:04 ` transient Stefan Kangas
2020-05-19 22:53 ` transient Drew Adams
2020-05-19 4:02 ` which-key Richard Stallman
2020-05-17 7:09 ` GNU Emacs raison d'etre Drew Adams
2020-05-20 21:36 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-20 21:57 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-20 22:00 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-20 22:07 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-21 8:03 ` tomas
2020-05-21 9:33 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-21 10:04 ` tomas
2020-05-24 14:05 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-21 16:20 ` xristos
2020-05-24 13:45 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-24 16:52 ` xristos
2020-05-24 17:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-24 18:31 ` Philip K.
2020-05-25 17:34 ` João Távora
2020-05-26 4:14 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-26 11:32 ` João Távora
2020-05-27 3:08 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-27 5:01 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-29 12:59 ` Arthur Miller
2020-06-23 3:59 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-21 17:07 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-23 20:36 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-14 6:26 ` tomas
2020-05-14 6:16 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-05-15 3:18 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-16 0:56 ` Tak Kunihiro
2020-05-16 6:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16 9:10 ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-16 10:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16 12:24 ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-16 12:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-16 12:34 ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-16 12:46 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-16 13:57 ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-16 19:35 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-16 20:05 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-16 20:34 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-16 20:44 ` Bob Newell
2020-06-24 15:37 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2020-05-16 23:12 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-16 23:18 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-16 23:47 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-17 1:14 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 3:13 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-17 6:49 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 7:02 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17 7:11 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 9:07 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17 10:20 ` Marcin Borkowski
2020-05-17 11:07 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17 15:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-17 15:48 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-17 17:06 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-17 17:31 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-17 18:57 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 20:03 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-18 8:32 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-18 11:39 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-18 13:02 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-18 13:38 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-18 16:31 ` Robert Pluim
2020-05-18 23:14 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-19 8:41 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-20 1:01 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 9:06 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-21 0:15 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-21 9:07 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-21 23:16 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-22 9:31 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-25 2:37 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-26 8:06 ` martin rudalics
2020-06-05 2:40 ` pop-up-mini-mode, was " Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-19 8:40 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-20 0:40 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 9:04 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-20 13:28 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 14:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 14:56 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 16:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 17:45 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-20 18:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 18:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 18:24 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 18:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 18:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-20 19:22 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 19:53 ` tomas
2020-05-20 21:22 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-21 7:43 ` tomas
2020-05-21 2:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-21 22:19 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-22 7:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-22 12:16 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-20 23:07 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-21 13:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-21 17:55 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-18 15:57 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-19 8:41 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-21 18:19 ` Suppressing beginning/end-of-buffer error messages (WAS: GNU Emacs raison d'etre) Noam Postavsky
2020-05-22 9:30 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-22 12:46 ` Noam Postavsky
[not found] ` <11bfe86b-131c-4f55-5125-c269a73e360d@gmx.at>
2020-05-23 11:10 ` Noam Postavsky
2020-05-17 18:36 ` GNU Emacs raison d'etre Drew Adams
2020-05-17 21:04 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-17 21:48 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 18:38 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 21:17 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-17 21:37 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-18 8:33 ` martin rudalics
2020-05-18 11:37 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 21:57 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 18:28 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 17:59 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-17 18:07 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 7:54 ` Sergey Organov
2020-05-17 11:37 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 18:11 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-16 23:01 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-17 2:55 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-28 4:12 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-28 5:51 ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-05-28 6:13 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-28 14:12 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-28 14:42 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-28 16:34 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-29 14:44 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-28 15:00 ` Philip K.
2020-05-28 15:13 ` João Távora
2020-05-28 16:04 ` T.V Raman
[not found] ` <p914ks0kpui.fsf@google.com-M8R14r9----2>
2020-05-28 16:12 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-28 16:46 ` T.V Raman
2020-05-28 17:34 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-28 18:11 ` andres.ramirez
[not found] ` <877dwwezfr.fsf@red-bean.com-M8RLd3p--3-2>
2020-05-28 18:28 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-29 1:12 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-30 1:44 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-30 2:02 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-30 9:13 ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-30 16:43 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-05-31 7:07 ` Richard Stallman
2020-06-08 17:37 ` REmacs was " T.V Raman
2020-06-01 7:29 ` Meaning behind Control-G Lars Brinkhoff
2020-06-01 7:56 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2020-06-01 9:06 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2020-06-01 13:44 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-06-02 1:51 ` Paul Eggert
2020-06-02 5:58 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2020-06-02 13:50 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-06-02 15:38 ` Drew Adams
2020-06-02 11:46 ` John Yates
2020-07-10 12:13 ` GNU Emacs raison d'etre Lars Brinkhoff
2020-07-10 14:28 ` Drew Adams
2020-07-11 2:16 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-28 16:41 ` FW: " Drew Adams
2020-05-28 17:37 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-28 20:33 ` Perry E. Metzger
2020-05-28 23:44 ` T.V Raman
2020-05-29 3:04 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-13 19:46 ` T.V Raman
2020-05-13 21:00 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-13 21:02 ` excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.
2020-05-13 22:22 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-05-14 4:20 ` Karl Fogel
2020-05-14 0:04 ` John Wiegley
2020-05-14 5:08 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-14 20:29 ` Karl Fogel [this message]
[not found] <64c4b2e4-3c07-0ad4-bcdf-39e95cae8a57.ref@aol.com>
2020-08-09 17:11 ` Clive Tovero
2020-08-10 1:26 ` Alexandre Garreau
[not found] <c0ffdaa1-90cc-2bb3-d2e0-93c7115df969.ref@aol.com>
2020-08-10 2:49 ` Clive Tovero
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