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* Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have
@ 2020-09-08 18:48 Göktuğ Kayaalp
  2020-09-08 19:30 ` Yuan Fu
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 182+ messages in thread
From: Göktuğ Kayaalp @ 2020-09-08 18:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-devel


> I think everybody would agree on attracting more people to use
> Emacs—that means more blogs and help, more contributor, etc. And
> people agree that Emacs isn’t as beginner-friendly as it could be. The
> problem is what to improve, and how.

Not necessarily.  Personally, I don’t see much benefit in trying to
appeal users that have no background in coding whatsoever, and users who
wouldn’t really benefit from what Emacs has to offer.

> As the first step, we should collect real experiences from real
> beginners: someone starts to use Emacs just recently (e.g., less than
> one year).

The major problem is that someone who fiddled with Emacs now and
couldn’t make use of it may think differently when a couple years later
they have some knowledge of programming (not necessarily professionally)
and some experience with other tools.

Anecdotally, I’ve picked up and quit Emacs multiple times before I
decided to stay with it.  And it’s been more than 6 years now that I’m
using it for the good part of my computing.  What was puzzling and weird
to me back then is useful and essential to me now.

What I mean is, what is good for newcomers, who are not guaranteed to
stay, can be irrelevant, not so good, or even off-putting to actual
users of this package of software.  Emacs is a power tool, and like all
power tools, requires two preconditions to be useful: 1) the user should
*need* the tool, and 2) the user should be willing to put in the time to
learn the tool.  And a good power tool is designed with user who need
and use them the most in mind.

IDK. IMHO, we shouldn’t break stuff in Emacs itself, and maybe promote
distros for people that want a more "modern" experience instead.  They
don’t have the backwards compatibility baggage of Emacs so they will do
it better than Emacs core nevertheless.

--
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp / @cadadr / <https://www.gkayaalp.com/>
pgp:   024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 182+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <<875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com>]
* Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have
@ 2020-09-08 20:10 Göktuğ Kayaalp
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 182+ messages in thread
From: Göktuğ Kayaalp @ 2020-09-08 20:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-devel

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 15:30:56 -0400, Yuan Fu wrote:
> I generally agree with your point. However, what I have in mind is not
> changing defaults, but rather a configuration wizard, that can prompt
> user and let him select from Emacs binding vs CUA binding, Emacs undo
> vs simple undo/redo, themes, etc. I’ve seen such wizard in Intellj
> Idea, Spacemacs, etc. Something like (just an example):

That looks pretty reasonable to me.  Maybe it’d pop up if user does not
have a ‘user-init-file’, maybe with a prelude that asks "Hey, you don’t
have an init file, do you want to run the initial configuration wizard"?
Also, at the end, maybe redirect the user to a revised version of C-h t
that accomodates the preferences in the wizard.

IDK how relevant, but my observation is that most inexperienced users
are coming to Emacs for Org mode.  So maybe making https://orgmode.org
more informative for Emacs newbies could help too.  Maybe create a
couple ‘official’ video walkthroughs comparing these customisations
versus traditional Emacs way, pros and cons to each.

--
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp / @cadadr / <https://www.gkayaalp.com/>
pgp:   024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 182+ messages in thread
* Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have
@ 2020-09-08 17:28 Yuan Fu
  2020-09-10 11:51 ` Jean Louis
  2020-09-15  7:11 ` Andreas Röhler
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 182+ messages in thread
From: Yuan Fu @ 2020-09-08 17:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-devel

I think everybody would agree on attracting more people to use Emacs—that means more blogs and help, more contributor, etc. And people agree that Emacs isn’t as beginner-friendly as it could be. The problem is what to improve, and how.

As the first step, we should collect real experiences from real beginners: someone starts to use Emacs just recently (e.g., less than one year). Ask people around, ask people on the internet. I’ll post on reddit for some input. Can I use a title like “Emacs developers wants to know what confuses beginners in vanilla Emacs?”

Once we have an idea on what real beginners are complaining about, we can then try to improve them.

Yuan


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 182+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2020-09-30 14:11 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 182+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-09-08 18:48 Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-08 19:30 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-08 21:30   ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-09  3:51     ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-09 14:18       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-09 14:24         ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-09 15:07           ` Stefan Kangas
2020-09-09 16:09             ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-09 16:23               ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-09 16:06           ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-11  4:13             ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11  4:13         ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11  4:41           ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-09  7:57     ` tomas
2020-09-10  2:40       ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-10  3:32         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10  8:29           ` tomas
2020-09-10  9:08             ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-10  9:34               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 10:08                 ` tomas
2020-09-10  9:30             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 10:11               ` tomas
2020-09-11  4:18           ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-11  7:06             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 13:47               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-12  3:22               ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-12  3:46                 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-10  8:28         ` tomas
2020-09-09 14:01   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-10 23:20     ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-11  0:20       ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Stefan Kangas
2020-09-11  8:15         ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11  9:47           ` Interactive guide for new users Phil Sainty
2020-09-11 14:04           ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Yuan Fu
2020-09-11 14:38             ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 14:49               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 15:20                 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 15:28                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 15:46                     ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 15:51                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 16:00                         ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 17:03                           ` Interactive guide for new users Robert Pluim
2020-09-11 17:23                             ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 17:36                               ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-11 17:39                                 ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 18:43                           ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 19:48                             ` Ergus
2020-09-12  6:02                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12  9:33                                 ` Ergus
2020-09-13 12:13                                   ` Interactive guide for new users Philip K.
2020-09-11 18:59                           ` FW: Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Drew Adams
2020-09-11 17:47                       ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-11 17:53                         ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 18:04                         ` Praharsh Suryadevara
2020-09-12 11:16                         ` Interactive guide for new users Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-09-12 14:26                           ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 14:55                             ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 15:10                               ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 15:18                                 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-13 18:12               ` Juri Linkov
2020-09-11 14:02         ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Yuan Fu
2020-09-12  9:31         ` Interactive guide for new users Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12  9:55           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 10:35             ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 10:52               ` Ergus
2020-09-12 10:58               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 11:34                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-12 12:00                 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 12:21                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 13:56                     ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 14:07                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 12:54                   ` Ergus
2020-09-12 12:16                 ` Ergus
2020-09-12 12:34                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 13:18                     ` Ergus
2020-09-12 13:43                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 14:17                         ` Ergus
2020-09-12 14:36                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 14:55                             ` Ergus
2020-09-12 16:25                             ` Ergus
2020-09-12 17:17                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 17:21                                 ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-12 17:39                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-12 18:36                                   ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-12 20:05                                     ` Ergus
2020-09-13  0:01                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13  2:35                           ` Ergus
2020-09-13 17:56                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 22:10                               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-14 11:20                                 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-14 23:42                                   ` E
2020-09-15  7:40                                     ` Ergus
2020-09-15 23:40                                       ` E
2020-09-15 12:10                                   ` Stephen Leake
2020-09-15 12:22                                     ` Thibaut Verron
2020-09-15 23:33                                     ` E
2020-09-13 18:01                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 18:20                             ` Tim Van den Langenbergh
2020-09-13 21:10                               ` Ergus
2020-09-13  7:14                           ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-13 14:04                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-13 16:38                             ` John Yates
2020-09-13 16:51                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-13 17:39                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-14 12:41                                 ` John Yates
2020-09-14 15:28                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-15  1:42                                     ` John Yates
2020-09-15  7:00                                       ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-16  3:30                                         ` John Yates
2020-09-16 10:14                                           ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-15 14:15                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-14 22:28                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-13 17:47                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-14 14:17                             ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-26  9:16               ` Elias Mårtenson
2020-09-26  9:31                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 14:38                 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 15:13                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 16:33                     ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 16:39                   ` Andreas Schwab
2020-09-26 16:57                     ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 16:01                 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-12 11:02             ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-12 12:12               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-14 10:52               ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-19 15:20         ` Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have) Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-19 17:02           ` Drew Adams
2020-09-21 14:50             ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-21 16:07               ` Drew Adams
2020-09-21 21:40                 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-21 23:03                   ` Drew Adams
2020-09-22  3:40                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-22  9:06                   ` Interactive guide for new users Philip K.
2020-09-23  3:40                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-23 12:49                       ` Philip K.
2020-09-24  1:32                         ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-26  3:13                           ` Okam
2020-09-22 14:06                   ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-28  9:24                   ` Po Lu
2020-09-29  3:29                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-19 17:16           ` Philip K.
2020-09-19 17:25             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 18:09               ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-19 18:39                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 21:43                   ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-20  5:52                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-21 22:15                       ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-22 13:56                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-23 12:54                           ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-23 13:28                             ` Caio Henrique
2020-09-23 13:42                               ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-23 14:16                             ` Stefan Kangas
2020-09-23 14:58                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-23 23:14                               ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-30 13:20                                 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-30 14:11                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-19 17:53             ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-20  9:26               ` Philip K.
2020-09-21 21:48                 ` Eduardo Mercovich
2020-09-11  6:45       ` Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11  8:51         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-11  8:59           ` Emanuel Berg via Emacs development discussions.
2020-09-11 13:52         ` Yuan Fu
2020-09-11 14:01           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-11 14:27           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-09  2:01 ` Nick Savage
2020-09-09 14:48   ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-10  2:36 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-10 10:07   ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-10 17:28     ` Drew Adams
2020-09-10 21:17       ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
     [not found] <<875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com>
     [not found] ` <<D09D40C2-FF5C-4D1B-A030-C710297C1AE0@gmail.com>
     [not found]   ` <<83lfhjkq0r.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]     ` <<8620B5CD-CA92-46BF-80A8-DBE7052F4CA6@gmail.com>
     [not found]       ` <<CADwFkm=GQqZ2e07QuC582T-MNhi1Xo4OPsMTYbQHH9gD7h6QnA@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]         ` <<alpine.NEB.2.22.394.2009120917260453.23267@sdf.lonestar.org>
     [not found]           ` <<83d02re2uk.fsf@gnu.org>
2020-09-12 16:25             ` Interactive guide for new users Drew Adams
2020-09-13  4:34               ` Ihor Radchenko
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2020-09-08 20:10 Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Göktuğ Kayaalp
2020-09-08 17:28 Yuan Fu
2020-09-10 11:51 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-10 12:51   ` tomas
2020-09-15  7:11 ` Andreas Röhler
2020-09-15  8:21   ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-15 10:13     ` Andreas Röhler
2020-09-15 10:34       ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-15 11:22     ` Göktuğ Kayaalp

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