Update of ELPA package guess-language

Update of ELPA package guess-language

[Titus von der Malsburg]

A while ago I contributed the package guess-language to ELPA [1].  In the meantime, I’ve added some improvements in my own git repository but it’s not entirely clear to me how I can update the ELPA version.  From reading the ELPA README [2], it seems that I have to request an update on this list every time there is (significant-enough) change in my repo (since I wasn’t given push permissions).  Is that really true?  I’m asking because I rarely see such requests here and because it’s not a terribly efficient workflow.  Is there no way that ELPA can automatically pull changes from the original repository?

  Titus

[1] https://elpa.gnu.org/packages/guess-language.html
[2] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/plain/README

Re: Update of ELPA package guess-language

[Philip Kaludercic]

Titus von der Malsburg <malsburg@posteo.de> writes:

> A while ago I contributed the package guess-language to ELPA [1].  In
> the meantime, I’ve added some improvements in my own git repository
> but it’s not entirely clear to me how I can update the ELPA version.
> From reading the ELPA README [2], it seems that I have to request an
> update on this list every time there is (significant-enough) change in
> my repo (since I wasn’t given push permissions).  Is that really true?
> I’m asking because I rarely see such requests here and because it’s
> not a terribly efficient workflow.  Is there no way that ELPA can
> automatically pull changes from the original repository?

It should be possible, some package specifications (see elpa-packages)
are given the :auto-sync attribute, but I am not sure what the
conditions are for a package to be granted this status.

If you want to, I can update the package for now. The only question is
whether or not everyone with a significant contribution has signed the
copyright assignment to the FSF.

>   Titus
>
> [1] https://elpa.gnu.org/packages/guess-language.html
> [2] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/plain/README
>
>

-- 
	Philip Kaludercic

Re: Update of ELPA package guess-language

[Tassilo Horn]

Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:

>> A while ago I contributed the package guess-language to ELPA [1].  In
>> the meantime, I’ve added some improvements in my own git repository
>> but it’s not entirely clear to me how I can update the ELPA version.
>> From reading the ELPA README [2], it seems that I have to request an
>> update on this list every time there is (significant-enough) change
>> in my repo (since I wasn’t given push permissions).  Is that really
>> true?  I’m asking because I rarely see such requests here and because
>> it’s not a terribly efficient workflow.  Is there no way that ELPA
>> can automatically pull changes from the original repository?
>
> It should be possible, some package specifications (see elpa-packages)
> are given the :auto-sync attribute, but I am not sure what the
> conditions are for a package to be granted this status.

I can't find docs for :auto-sync.  Is that still in use, i.e., is there
any behavior associated with it?  At least Stefan said in [1] that
auto-sync is effective for all packages in NonGNU ELPA.  And indeed, I
can testify that changing stuff in my upstream repo and increasing the
Version will trigger a new NonGNU ELPA release.

But maybe adding :auto-sync t is needed for GNU ELPA.

Bye,
Tassilo

[1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2021-08/msg00533.html

Re: Update of ELPA package guess-language

[Stefan Monnier]

> But maybe adding :auto-sync t is needed for GNU ELPA.

Exactly,


        Stefan

Re: Update of ELPA package guess-language

[Bozhidar Batsov]

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> But maybe adding :auto-sync t is needed for GNU ELPA.

Seems like a prudent idea to me. I was surprised to learn that GNU ELPA and NonGNU ELPA behave differently in this regard. Perhaps there's some concern that changes that are not properly copyrighted might make their way into GNU ELPA?

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021, at 2:51 PM, Tassilo Horn wrote:
> Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:
> 
> >> A while ago I contributed the package guess-language to ELPA [1].  In
> >> the meantime, I’ve added some improvements in my own git repository
> >> but it’s not entirely clear to me how I can update the ELPA version.
> >> From reading the ELPA README [2], it seems that I have to request an
> >> update on this list every time there is (significant-enough) change
> >> in my repo (since I wasn’t given push permissions).  Is that really
> >> true?  I’m asking because I rarely see such requests here and because
> >> it’s not a terribly efficient workflow.  Is there no way that ELPA
> >> can automatically pull changes from the original repository?
> >
> > It should be possible, some package specifications (see elpa-packages)
> > are given the :auto-sync attribute, but I am not sure what the
> > conditions are for a package to be granted this status.
> 
> I can't find docs for :auto-sync.  Is that still in use, i.e., is there
> any behavior associated with it?  At least Stefan said in [1] that
> auto-sync is effective for all packages in NonGNU ELPA.  And indeed, I
> can testify that changing stuff in my upstream repo and increasing the
> Version will trigger a new NonGNU ELPA release.
> 
> But maybe adding :auto-sync t is needed for GNU ELPA.
> 
> Bye,
> Tassilo
> 
> [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2021-08/msg00533.html
> 
> 

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Re: Update of ELPA package guess-language

[Titus von der Malsburg]

On 2021-08-26 Thu 08:31, "Bozhidar Batsov" <bozhidar@batsov.dev> wrote:
>> But maybe adding :auto-sync t is needed for GNU ELPA.
>
> Seems like a prudent idea to me. I was surprised to learn that GNU
> ELPA and NonGNU ELPA behave differently in this regard. Perhaps
> there's some concern that changes that are not properly copyrighted
> might make their way into GNU ELPA?

Yes, and in my specific case the copyright situation is indeed unclear, which means that it would have been a mistake to automatically fetch the changes.

  Titus

>
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021, at 2:51 PM, Tassilo Horn wrote:
>> Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:
>> 
>> >> A while ago I contributed the package guess-language to ELPA [1].  In
>> >> the meantime, I’ve added some improvements in my own git repository
>> >> but it’s not entirely clear to me how I can update the ELPA version.
>> >> From reading the ELPA README [2], it seems that I have to request an
>> >> update on this list every time there is (significant-enough) change
>> >> in my repo (since I wasn’t given push permissions).  Is that really
>> >> true?  I’m asking because I rarely see such requests here and because
>> >> it’s not a terribly efficient workflow.  Is there no way that ELPA
>> >> can automatically pull changes from the original repository?
>> >
>> > It should be possible, some package specifications (see elpa-packages)
>> > are given the :auto-sync attribute, but I am not sure what the
>> > conditions are for a package to be granted this status.
>> 
>> I can't find docs for :auto-sync.  Is that still in use, i.e., is there
>> any behavior associated with it?  At least Stefan said in [1] that
>> auto-sync is effective for all packages in NonGNU ELPA.  And indeed, I
>> can testify that changing stuff in my upstream repo and increasing the
>> Version will trigger a new NonGNU ELPA release.
>> 
>> But maybe adding :auto-sync t is needed for GNU ELPA.
>> 
>> Bye,
>> Tassilo
>> 
>> [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2021-08/msg00533.html
>> 
>> 

Re: Update of ELPA package guess-language

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Seems like a prudent idea to me. I was surprised to learn that GNU ELPA and NonGNU ELPA behave differently in this regard. Perhaps there's some concern that changes that are not properly copyrighted might make their way into GNU ELPA?

It is that, but more than that.  The developers of some NonGNU ELPA
packages have not (as far as I know) made any arrangements with us.
They never engaged to maintain the code in accord with the rules of
NonGNU ELPA, so we can't presume that they are doing so.  We can only
look at their changes and then decide what to do.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Update of ELPA package guess-language

[Philip Kaludercic]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > Seems like a prudent idea to me. I was surprised to learn that GNU
> ELPA and NonGNU ELPA behave differently in this regard. Perhaps
> there's some concern that changes that are not properly copyrighted
> might make their way into GNU ELPA?
>
> It is that, but more than that.  The developers of some NonGNU ELPA
> packages have not (as far as I know) made any arrangements with us.
> They never engaged to maintain the code in accord with the rules of
> NonGNU ELPA, so we can't presume that they are doing so.  We can only
> look at their changes and then decide what to do.

To be fair, I have notified every package maintainer that has been added
to NonGNU ELPA, to inform them of how (NonGNU) ELPA works, what they
should remember if they are interested in being part of the repository.

Sadly a few have not responded yet, mostly because the projects are
quasi dead, others have asked to be removed temporarily, but most have
responded positively and are interested in cooperating.

-- 
	Philip Kaludercic

Re: Update of ELPA package guess-language

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > It is that, but more than that.  The developers of some NonGNU ELPA
  > > packages have not (as far as I know) made any arrangements with us.
  > > They never engaged to maintain the code in accord with the rules of
  > > NonGNU ELPA, so we can't presume that they are doing so.  We can only
  > > look at their changes and then decide what to do.

  > To be fair, I have notified every package maintainer that has been added
  > to NonGNU ELPA, to inform them of how (NonGNU) ELPA works, what they
  > should remember if they are interested in being part of the repository.

I am concerned there may have been a misunderstanding here.

We specifically did not want to insist that every package's developer
agree to follow NonGNU ELPA rules.  Our plan was to have two ways of
handling a package in NonGNU ELPA:

1. The developers would undertake to follow the NonGNU ELPA rules,
and we would import their changes automatically.

2. The developers would not undertake anything, and we would look
at new versions to see whether to import them.

Did you just say to all of them that they all had to do (1)?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Update of ELPA package guess-language

[Philip Kaludercic]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > > It is that, but more than that.  The developers of some NonGNU ELPA
>   > > packages have not (as far as I know) made any arrangements with us.
>   > > They never engaged to maintain the code in accord with the rules of
>   > > NonGNU ELPA, so we can't presume that they are doing so.  We can only
>   > > look at their changes and then decide what to do.
>
>   > To be fair, I have notified every package maintainer that has been added
>   > to NonGNU ELPA, to inform them of how (NonGNU) ELPA works, what they
>   > should remember if they are interested in being part of the repository.
>
> I am concerned there may have been a misunderstanding here.
>
> We specifically did not want to insist that every package's developer
> agree to follow NonGNU ELPA rules.  Our plan was to have two ways of
> handling a package in NonGNU ELPA:
>
> 1. The developers would undertake to follow the NonGNU ELPA rules,
> and we would import their changes automatically.
>
> 2. The developers would not undertake anything, and we would look
> at new versions to see whether to import them.
>
> Did you just say to all of them that they all had to do (1)?

No, I just inform the maintainers that their packages have been added to
NonGNU ELPA, how it works (new versions are released when the "Version"
attribute is updated) and that they might update the documentation if
they are interested in promoting NonGNU ELPA as a installation method.

-- 
	Philip Kaludercic

Re: Update of ELPA package guess-language

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > Did you just say to all of them that they all had to do (1)?

  > No, I just inform the maintainers that their packages have been added to
  > NonGNU ELPA, how it works (new versions are released when the "Version"
  > attribute is updated) and that they might update the documentation if
  > they are interested in promoting NonGNU ELPA as a installation method.

Thanks.

Did I understand correctly that your message saying that had the
effect of causing some of them to act uncomfortable?  If so, did any
of them say just what it was that had that effect?  We would rather
not have that effect, and if a considerable number of them have an
issue with it, it would be useful for us to find out just what.  Then
we could think about whether we might want to make some change --
either in our policies for NonGNU ELPA, or in the way we present them.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Update of ELPA package guess-language

[Philip Kaludercic]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > > Did you just say to all of them that they all had to do (1)?
>
>   > No, I just inform the maintainers that their packages have been added to
>   > NonGNU ELPA, how it works (new versions are released when the "Version"
>   > attribute is updated) and that they might update the documentation if
>   > they are interested in promoting NonGNU ELPA as a installation method.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Did I understand correctly that your message saying that had the
> effect of causing some of them to act uncomfortable?  If so, did any
> of them say just what it was that had that effect?  We would rather
> not have that effect, and if a considerable number of them have an
> issue with it, it would be useful for us to find out just what.  Then
> we could think about whether we might want to make some change --
> either in our policies for NonGNU ELPA, or in the way we present them.

I wouldn't say uncomfortable, the specific package was haskell-mode that
seems to use some special release mechanism geared towards MELPA. The
difference there is that MELPA always generates their own version tag,
so they do not add one manually in the repo itself. The maintainer Steve
Purcell, who is also one of the main MELPA contributors, just asked for
some more time to make sure that everything will work as expected.

The only other complaint I have heard of is that in ELPA differing from
MELPA, package maintainers have to change their workflow.

All of the complaints where technical in nature. Nobody explicitly
opposed NonGNU on policy or ideological grounds (at least up until now),
so I don't think anything has to be changed for now.

-- 
	Philip Kaludercic

Re: Update of ELPA package guess-language

[Titus von der Malsburg]

On 2021-08-25 Wed 10:24, Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> wrote:
> Titus von der Malsburg <malsburg@posteo.de> writes:
>
>> A while ago I contributed the package guess-language to ELPA [1].  In
>> the meantime, I’ve added some improvements in my own git repository
>> but it’s not entirely clear to me how I can update the ELPA version.
>> From reading the ELPA README [2], it seems that I have to request an
>> update on this list every time there is (significant-enough) change in
>> my repo (since I wasn’t given push permissions).  Is that really true?
>> I’m asking because I rarely see such requests here and because it’s
>> not a terribly efficient workflow.  Is there no way that ELPA can
>> automatically pull changes from the original repository?
>
> It should be possible, some package specifications (see elpa-packages)
> are given the :auto-sync attribute, but I am not sure what the
> conditions are for a package to be granted this status.
>
> If you want to, I can update the package for now. The only question is
> whether or not everyone with a significant contribution has signed the
> copyright assignment to the FSF.

Thank you, Philip.  I don’t know whether the recent contributors have signed the FSF paperwork and multiple contributions were non-trivial.  Need to think about how to best deal with this.  Stefan has replied to me off-list and I will discuss it with him.

  Titus


>
>>   Titus
>>
>> [1] https://elpa.gnu.org/packages/guess-language.html
>> [2] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/plain/README
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> 	Philip Kaludercic