From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Danny Freeman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Clojure mode Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2023 09:48:12 -0400 Message-ID: <87sf85x5s7.fsf@dfreeman.email> References: <87il9kksqz.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87a5uw9ivs.fsf@posteo.net> <87ttt42gna.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87wmy080kn.fsf@posteo.net> <83v8djcydl.fsf@gnu.org> <87350ndquw.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83350ncbns.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyzrjbd8.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83zg2vav46.fsf@gnu.org> <87o7j99304.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87zg2hsyrd.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87h6ontwfv.fsf@posteo.net> <87h6omuvbz.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36003"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Richard Stallman , eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, manuel.uberti@inventati.org To: Philip Kaludercic Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 26 16:01:47 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qZtrH-0009Bg-1X for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 26 Aug 2023 16:01:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qZtqJ-0006Rj-CW; Sat, 26 Aug 2023 10:00:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qZtqG-0006EC-Vm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Aug 2023 10:00:45 -0400 Original-Received: from out-242.mta1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:203:375::f2]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qZtqC-0002HX-6U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Aug 2023 10:00:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dfreeman.email; s=key1; t=1693058429; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=+cOv5m+1gKtGoXhHnCJzxCa+d6iK9flpxL4svEOko4U=; b=WqX82FPr3r90CK16ij1MQ8D3PkLjWczMfJS3cP10M8EPgnChZ/+8na+w4s+9Wj0FzsSMC5 2uDLglQcl6E7Z3C3dQqby5XSnOmMzZ+b43YYqTTbHOOSUOeekiLvhGksMe3X/R9eoPIKTu FDCVOx2qUQQqxjAL/q6ZqPAaeHF5+I0= X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. In-reply-to: <87h6omuvbz.fsf@posteo.net> X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2001:41d0:203:375::f2; envelope-from=danny@dfreeman.email; helo=out-242.mta1.migadu.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309253 Archived-At: Philip Kaludercic writes: > Richard Stallman writes: > >> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] >> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] >> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] >> >> > > This could be done by getting copyright assignments for code in the >> > > NonGNU ELPA package, or by writing new code to replace it, or by a >> > > mixture of the two. >> >> > The issue here is, that the clojure-mode developers are mostly averse to >> > assigning their code to the FSF. >> >> What those people think should not be a crucial issue, because writing >> a major mode to handle a language is not a big job. We have dozens of >> them in Emacs. Lots of us here would be able to replace it. > > IMO it really depends on the level of integration one is aiming for. As > mentioned in my last message, if it is just basic syntax support, then I > guess anyone with a language specification could do it. But since > Closure is some sort of a mock-lisp, a user might be interested in > having more complex features such as REPL integration and perhaps some > kind of proper indentation for macros (assuming Clojure has macros). > >> The trick is to start thinking of it as a module to be written, >> rather than as a need for something that we can't have; > > I still question the need for replicating the labour, if the only > advantage the user has is that they don't have to M-x package-install > the existing major mode from NonGNU ELPA. Especially when given > functionality like what the "gnu-elpa" package provides, in being able > to suggest the right packages for a file type (which is currently > underutilised and IMO should be moved into package.el itself). I should say to anyone considering writing yet another Clojure major mode, who is asking for this? I do not see any Clojure developers anywhere in this thread, or anywhere else, expressing a desire for another clojure major mode. It would be largely a wasted effort. Clojure-mode was created 15 years ago as a derivative of lisp-mode. It pairs with a SLIME-like package called CIDER that has been in development for almost as long. Any serious Clojure developer will eventually learn to install these battle tested packages over anything that comes out of this conversation. I believe adding a third Clojure mode would just confuse users and be a wasted effort. To further re-iterate how much of a non-problem this is, the most recent survey done of Clojure developers found that 42% use Emacs as their primary development environment. If not being available out of the box was such a big issue for users of clojure-mode, then that number would not be so high. -- Danny Freeman