Default Info face

Default Info face

[Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.]

Hi,

If I'm not mistaken, currently, the face used for the text body of Info
nodes is `default'.  I was wondering if there would be any interest in
having an `info' face defined for this usage.  I imagine that it could
inherit for `variable-pitch-text' as "shr.el" is doing.  I also guess
that it would have an impact on some sub-faces (like `info-title*' for
example).  WDYT?
-- 
Manuel Giraud

Re: Default Info face

[tomas]

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On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 11:00:54AM +0100, Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions. wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, currently, the face used for the text body of Info
> nodes is `default'.  I was wondering if there would be any interest in
> having an `info' face defined for this usage.  I imagine that it could
> inherit for `variable-pitch-text' as "shr.el" is doing.  I also guess
> that it would have an impact on some sub-faces (like `info-title*' for
> example).  WDYT?

As long as I can define variable-pitch to be a fixed-pitch font ;-P

More seriously: I explicitly set as much as I can to be a fixed pitch
font. It works best with my combo of screen and sight. I think it's
a bad idea to encode a font property into a base font's name. It feels
like forcing others to swallow one's own esthetic preferences.

Thanks & cheers
-- 
t

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Re: Default Info face

[Eric S Fraga]

Response below/inline for email tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> (original email sent 18 Dec 2024 at 11:22)
> 
> I think it's a bad idea to encode a font property into a base font's
> name.

+1

But the OP's suggestion of a different face for Info mode may be a good
idea, with the default being to simply inherit from default?

-- 
Eric S Fraga via gnus (Emacs 31.0.50 2024-12-17) on Debian 12.6

Re: Default Info face

[Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.]

<tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:

> On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 11:00:54AM +0100, Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions. wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> If I'm not mistaken, currently, the face used for the text body of Info
>> nodes is `default'.  I was wondering if there would be any interest in
>> having an `info' face defined for this usage.  I imagine that it could
>> inherit for `variable-pitch-text' as "shr.el" is doing.  I also guess
>> that it would have an impact on some sub-faces (like `info-title*' for
>> example).  WDYT?
>
> As long as I can define variable-pitch to be a fixed-pitch font ;-P
>
> More seriously: I explicitly set as much as I can to be a fixed pitch
> font. It works best with my combo of screen and sight. I think it's
> a bad idea to encode a font property into a base font's name. It feels
> like forcing others to swallow one's own esthetic preferences.

This will, of course, still be possible to have everything using a fixed
font.  But OTOH, currently, besides "M-x variable-pitch-mode" I don't
think there is a way to have Info pages (only) to be displayed as
variable-pitch.

Thanks for your input.
-- 
Manuel Giraud

Re: Default Info face

[tomas]

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On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 01:46:11PM +0100, Manuel Giraud wrote:
> <tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:
> 
> > On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 11:00:54AM +0100, Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions. wrote:

[...]
> > As long as I can define variable-pitch to be a fixed-pitch font ;-P

> This will, of course, still be possible to have everything using a fixed
> font.

Phew :-)

>  But OTOH, currently, besides "M-x variable-pitch-mode" I don't
> think there is a way to have Info pages (only) to be displayed as
> variable-pitch.

By making the new "info" font inherit from something else?

Cheers
-- 
t

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Re: Default Info face

[tomas]

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On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 12:18:27PM +0000, Eric S Fraga wrote:
> Response below/inline for email tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > (original email sent 18 Dec 2024 at 11:22)
> > 
> > I think it's a bad idea to encode a font property into a base font's
> > name.
> 
> +1
> 
> But the OP's suggestion of a different face for Info mode may be a good
> idea,

Absolutely.

> with the default being to simply inherit from default?

yes, perhaps.

Cheers
-- 
t

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Re: Default Info face

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 11:00:54 +0100
> From:  Manuel Giraud via "Emacs development discussions." <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> If I'm not mistaken, currently, the face used for the text body of Info
> nodes is `default'.  I was wondering if there would be any interest in
> having an `info' face defined for this usage.  I imagine that it could
> inherit for `variable-pitch-text' as "shr.el" is doing.  I also guess
> that it would have an impact on some sub-faces (like `info-title*' for
> example).  WDYT?

Info manuals don't look nice with variable-pitch fonts because
'makeinfo' fills and justifies lines assuming a fixed-pitch font, then
inserts hard newlines between lines.  Try making your default face use
a variable-pitch font, and you will see that Info manuals look ugly:
some lines are too long, others too short.

Variable-pitch fonts could make sense if our documentation was
refilled, like we do in shr.el for HTML content.  But that will not
work with Info, I think, at least not in the near future.

If variable-pitch face is out, what other advantages could we have by
using a specialized face in Info?

Re: Default Info face

[Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.]

tomas@tuxteam.de writes:

> On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 01:46:11PM +0100, Manuel Giraud wrote:
>> <tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:
>> 
>> > On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 11:00:54AM +0100, Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions. wrote:
>
> [...]
>> > As long as I can define variable-pitch to be a fixed-pitch font ;-P
>
>> This will, of course, still be possible to have everything using a fixed
>> font.
>
> Phew :-)

;-)

>>  But OTOH, currently, besides "M-x variable-pitch-mode" I don't
>> think there is a way to have Info pages (only) to be displayed as
>> variable-pitch.
>
> By making the new "info" font inherit from something else?

Yes that was my idea, this new "info" face would inherit from
`variable-pitch-text'.
-- 
Manuel Giraud

Re: Default Info face

[Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 11:00:54 +0100
>> From:  Manuel Giraud via "Emacs development discussions." <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
>> If I'm not mistaken, currently, the face used for the text body of Info
>> nodes is `default'.  I was wondering if there would be any interest in
>> having an `info' face defined for this usage.  I imagine that it could
>> inherit for `variable-pitch-text' as "shr.el" is doing.  I also guess
>> that it would have an impact on some sub-faces (like `info-title*' for
>> example).  WDYT?
>
> Info manuals don't look nice with variable-pitch fonts because
> 'makeinfo' fills and justifies lines assuming a fixed-pitch font, then
> inserts hard newlines between lines.  Try making your default face use
> a variable-pitch font, and you will see that Info manuals look ugly:
> some lines are too long, others too short.

I've just tried and I don't see more ugliness when using a
variable-pitch font in Info-mode.  The lines "too long" and "too short"
are already there when using a fixed-pitch font anyway.

[...]

> If variable-pitch face is out, what other advantages could we have by
> using a specialized face in Info?

Yes, if you rule out variable-pitch, there is not much left to this case
then.
-- 
Manuel Giraud

Re: Default Info face

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Manuel Giraud <manuel@ledu-giraud.fr>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 15:50:06 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Info manuals don't look nice with variable-pitch fonts because
> > 'makeinfo' fills and justifies lines assuming a fixed-pitch font, then
> > inserts hard newlines between lines.  Try making your default face use
> > a variable-pitch font, and you will see that Info manuals look ugly:
> > some lines are too long, others too short.
> 
> I've just tried and I don't see more ugliness when using a
> variable-pitch font in Info-mode.  The lines "too long" and "too short"
> are already there when using a fixed-pitch font anyway.

That's specific to the font your system uses when you say
"variable-pitch".  The results are not very predictable, and depend on
the OS and the fonts actually installed.

> > If variable-pitch face is out, what other advantages could we have by
> > using a specialized face in Info?
> 
> Yes, if you rule out variable-pitch, there is not much left to this case
> then.

So why is it so important to use variable-pitch face for Info?  What
are the advantages of that?

Re: Default Info face

[Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

[...]

>> I've just tried and I don't see more ugliness when using a
>> variable-pitch font in Info-mode.  The lines "too long" and "too short"
>> are already there when using a fixed-pitch font anyway.
>
> That's specific to the font your system uses when you say
> "variable-pitch".  The results are not very predictable, and depend on
> the OS and the fonts actually installed.

Ok.

>> > If variable-pitch face is out, what other advantages could we have by
>> > using a specialized face in Info?
>> 
>> Yes, if you rule out variable-pitch, there is not much left to this case
>> then.
>
> So why is it so important to use variable-pitch face for Info?  What
> are the advantages of that?

Well, I'm far from an expert on the matter but it is said™ that for
reading long text a proportional font is easier on the eyes.  I think
most books are printed with a proportional font.
-- 
Manuel Giraud

Re: Default Info face

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Manuel Giraud <manuel@ledu-giraud.fr>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 17:50:48 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > So why is it so important to use variable-pitch face for Info?  What
> > are the advantages of that?
> 
> Well, I'm far from an expert on the matter but it is said™ that for
> reading long text a proportional font is easier on the eyes.  I think
> most books are printed with a proportional font.

Well, that's true, but we in Emacs are staring at fixed-pitch text all
day long, and are supposed to be used to it.

I don't think I'd object to something like Info-variable-pitch-mode,
as an optional minor mode, but it could be quite a lot of work, since
we have other faces in Info manuals that should look well with such a
default.

Re: Default Info face

[Juri Linkov]

> If I'm not mistaken, currently, the face used for the text body of Info
> nodes is `default'.  I was wondering if there would be any interest in
> having an `info' face defined for this usage.  I imagine that it could
> inherit for `variable-pitch-text' as "shr.el" is doing.  I also guess
> that it would have an impact on some sub-faces (like `info-title*' for
> example).  WDYT?

Can you achieve this by face remapping?
For example, in the Info buffer:

  (face-remap-add-relative 'default 'variable-pitch)

Re: Default Info face

[Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Manuel Giraud <manuel@ledu-giraud.fr>
>> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 17:50:48 +0100
>> 
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> 
>> > So why is it so important to use variable-pitch face for Info?  What
>> > are the advantages of that?
>> 
>> Well, I'm far from an expert on the matter but it is said™ that for
>> reading long text a proportional font is easier on the eyes.  I think
>> most books are printed with a proportional font.
>
> Well, that's true, but we in Emacs are staring at fixed-pitch text all
> day long, and are supposed to be used to it.

:-)

> I don't think I'd object to something like Info-variable-pitch-mode,
> as an optional minor mode, but it could be quite a lot of work, since
> we have other faces in Info manuals that should look well with such a
> default.

I don't think I'd want to add a minor mode just for this.  I'll try Juri
solution and see if it fits the bill and then, I guess we could safely
close this thread.  Thanks.
-- 
Manuel Giraud

Re: Default Info face

[Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.]

Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> writes:

>> If I'm not mistaken, currently, the face used for the text body of Info
>> nodes is `default'.  I was wondering if there would be any interest in
>> having an `info' face defined for this usage.  I imagine that it could
>> inherit for `variable-pitch-text' as "shr.el" is doing.  I also guess
>> that it would have an impact on some sub-faces (like `info-title*' for
>> example).  WDYT?
>
> Can you achieve this by face remapping?
> For example, in the Info buffer:
>
>   (face-remap-add-relative 'default 'variable-pitch)

Thanks.  Yes this works and there is also `variable-pitch-mode' that I
can add to `Info-mode-hook'.
-- 
Manuel Giraud

Re: Default Info face

[Stefan Kangas]

Manuel Giraud via "Emacs development discussions." <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> If variable-pitch face is out, what other advantages could we have by
>> using a specialized face in Info?
>
> Yes, if you rule out variable-pitch, there is not much left to this case
> then.

Isn't the point of adding a new face to be able to customize it?  IOW,
you could make the new `info-default` face inherit `variable-pitch`, if
only it existed.  So there is some value to adding an `info-default`
face.

What am I missing?

Re: Default Info face

[Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> Manuel Giraud via "Emacs development discussions." <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> writes:
>
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>>> If variable-pitch face is out, what other advantages could we have by
>>> using a specialized face in Info?
>>
>> Yes, if you rule out variable-pitch, there is not much left to this case
>> then.
>
> Isn't the point of adding a new face to be able to customize it?  IOW,
> you could make the new `info-default` face inherit `variable-pitch`, if
> only it existed.  So there is some value to adding an `info-default`
> face.

Yes, my idea was to have this new `info-default' inheriting from
`variable-pitch-text'.  But it can (should) inherit from `default' by
default.

That said, this thread shows that there won't be much interest in this
feature.
-- 
Manuel Giraud