From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: BEGIN_SRC..END_SRC Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 13:08:41 +0900 Message-ID: <87r4uvs4ae.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <871umzrvfw.fsf@gmail.com> <87wr4rqg6g.fsf@gmail.com> <83d36j59gv.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4uz58e3.fsf@sec.modprobe.de> <83aa1n57p4.fsf@gnu.org> <5D17181ED92C4552AE8D4404DD035CA0@us.oracle.com> <87vck8sfyv.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <85obq05aua.fsf@iznogoud.viz> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1336450133 30616 80.91.229.3 (8 May 2012 04:08:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 04:08:53 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Martyn Jago , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Wolfgang Jenkner Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue May 08 06:08:52 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1SRbjI-00025X-0z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 May 2012 06:08:52 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56554 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SRbjG-0000DL-Vu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 May 2012 00:08:50 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:60824) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SRbjE-0000DD-1I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 May 2012 00:08:49 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SRbjC-0006xS-4F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 May 2012 00:08:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mgmt1.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.223]:60350) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SRbjB-0006sq-JT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 May 2012 00:08:46 -0400 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt1.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id A44DE3FA077A; Tue, 8 May 2012 13:08:41 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 58ABA1A25E4; Tue, 8 May 2012 13:08:41 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <85obq05aua.fsf@iznogoud.viz> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" 5d3bb1100832 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.223 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:150367 Archived-At: Wolfgang Jenkner writes: > On Mon, May 07 2012, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > > Martyn Jago writes: > > > > > [org-mode idioms are] plain text. > > > > If it gets interpreted by a program and concealed because humans > > really aren't interested in it, it's not plain text, it's markup. > > Except that it isn't. Gnus article mode does not hide the #+begin_src / > #+end_src markers. Surely you don't expect that to convince anybody! The important part of my sentence is "humans really aren't interested in it". And they aren't. It's not part of the code, it's markup. There's nothing sinful about having markup in plain text, as Ted Z pointed out. The problem here is that this markup is annoying or ugly to many humans, and doesn't contribute to better understanding when interpreted as plain text. It doesn't even make it easier to type, since it *will* be interpreted as text/plain in many subscribers' MUAs, so it *must* be preformatted as code. You can and should argue that some annoyance to the many is justified by the benefits to the org-mode/Gnus users. But I find that rather unconvincing, because there are alternative, less obtrusive, ways to get (code-aware) MUAs (eg, Gnus) to format code specially, such as a private text/program-code MIME type, or use of a "-*- -*-" comment. These would be more generally useful, and maybe non-Emacs MUAs would implement them. As you probably suspect, I prefer the MIME type approach (it's invisible to users of MIME-capable MUAs) but the "-*-" convention might work too. (It has been adopted as a protocol by other projects, including Python's PEP 263). My suggestion doesn't even prevent org-mode users from using that convention, as long as message-mode recognizes it and converts it to a MIME part. Sure, this will take a bit of effort since Gnus did it the other way around, but that was a suboptimal. It should be improved.