From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Default for the envelope From in smtpmail.el Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:43:17 +0900 Message-ID: <87r4rbmp7u.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <0xwr16rzz5.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83zk62c56n.fsf@gnu.org> <1usjbt9uzm.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87628pj727.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <19713425-C419-4A09-8D66-24717D761FE8@mit.edu> <2962EC94-1044-47A5-A111-F4CBACFDCA0B@mit.edu> <87obmgtaq2.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <79D4B58B-FFCA-42E0-AD13-48B1C0879ADC@mit.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1344829415 12793 80.91.229.3 (13 Aug 2012 03:43:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 03:43:35 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "emacs-devel@gnu.org discussions" To: chad Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 13 05:43:35 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1T0lZ0-0005eA-AU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 05:43:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41473 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T0lYz-0000NF-8Z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 12 Aug 2012 23:43:33 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:46195) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T0lYv-0000NA-VJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Aug 2012 23:43:32 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T0lYu-0005Jl-SS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Aug 2012 23:43:29 -0400 Original-Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:36464) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T0lYu-0005Is-CE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Aug 2012 23:43:28 -0400 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EEF697089E; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:43:18 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 22F1811F88A; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:43:18 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <79D4B58B-FFCA-42E0-AD13-48B1C0879ADC@mit.edu> X-Mailer: VM 8.0.12-devo-585 under 21.5 (beta31) "ginger" b4715fcbe001 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:152458 Archived-At: chad writes: > It's not a superset in the meaningful case; it's a subset - of the users. Yes, it is, and no, it's not. My mistake was elsewhere. > > That means that smtpmail.el should *default* to using the > > logged-in user's mailbox for the envelope sender. > > This is a default that will be wrong the vast majority of the time. Not at all. `user-mail-address' is an inherited non-default setting in my opinion. My mistake was not explicitly acknowledging that your opinion is different and at least as valid as mine. > The cases where a user's login name on an emacs-capable machine is the > same as a workable email address are a small minority, Probably true. Although I've never bothered on a personal GNU or BSD system, since I've always been behind the relevant firewall where relaying was open (not to mention that, until recently, so were outgoing calls to port 25 :-( ). I suppose a "sufficiently smart" network security committee would prohibit both of those, though. (Do any of those exist? But I digress....) > Conversely, user-mail-address has been used for decades, And is the setting that is currently used by smtpmail.el according to Glenn. But he wants something else! Glenn writes: >> To put it another way: if an email has a From: header, default to >> using that for the Envelope-From. I think the case of wanting to >> use something different is much less common, and should be the one >> that requires Emacs configuration. That's what I was arguing against. So in the end you and I are on the same team, although I was way too fuzzy in my own head about where the default mailbox needs to come from and how Emacs might find out what it is. > If the user hasn't told emacs about an email address, then using the > login name is a reasonable choice. If the user *has* told emacs their > email address, emacs should use it. And if the user decides to mess with From, he's on his own, at least as far as Emacs proper is concerned. No? I suppose it would be possible to enhance user-mail-address to something like user-mail-configurations, which would be a list of lists like (ADDRESS FULLNAME LOGIN AUTHENTICATION EXTRA-HEADERS). Of course Gnus already supports this kind of thing (I forget the Gnus name for the feature, as does VM ("personality crisis"). IIRC, Glenn was specifically referring to Gnus. So if he rephrases slightly to specify that MUA "personality" customizations should offer this option and documentation explaining when it makes sense, I think everybody would be happy. In the long run, it might be nice if Emacs would offer this as part of the compose-mail facility, and MUA packages would call back to themselves (by default) through this facility. Probably not going to happen, though.