From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Allan Webber Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs as word processor Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 11:26:26 -0600 Message-ID: <87r4adfwot.fsf@earlgrey.lan> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1384795612 11171 80.91.229.3 (18 Nov 2013 17:26:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 17:26:52 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 18 18:26:57 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ViSbB-0002n2-N8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2013 18:26:57 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45185 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ViSbB-0003By-AO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2013 12:26:57 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54034) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ViSb4-0003Bn-6p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2013 12:26:55 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ViSaz-0007RZ-Eg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2013 12:26:50 -0500 Original-Received: from li424-160.members.linode.com ([50.116.34.160]:47449 helo=dustycloud.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ViSaz-0007RO-Ba; Mon, 18 Nov 2013 12:26:45 -0500 Original-Received: from earlgrey.lan (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dustycloud.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A01A426737; Mon, 18 Nov 2013 12:26:43 -0500 (EST) User-agent: mu4e 0.9.9.6pre2; emacs 24.1.50.1 In-reply-to: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 50.116.34.160 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:165330 Archived-At: rms@gnu.org writes: > 25 years ago I hoped we would extend Emacs to do WYSIWG word > processing. That is why we added text properties and variable width > fonts. However, more features are still needed to achieve this. > > Could people please start working on the features that are needed? I'd love to have this also, for two different reasons. - It would be nice to be able to open and edit LibreOffice ODT files in emacs. I collaborate with people who are not programmers; this would allow us to collaborate more easily. - The set of features that would actually be required to be introduced could possibly lower the barrier to entry for getting into emacs that many run into (myself included, years ago) In that sense, from a technical level, it looks like there are two directions, which mostly map to the above: 1) an editing mode for ODT files that is mostly "ODT editing in emacs so existing emacs users can enjoy that". This feels like we have already a lot of the technology for; surely a major mode could be possible? We already have the ability to control font display, we have visual-line-mode...) It would possibly be a lot of work to write the parser and writer for ODT in emacs, but probably possible. In a sense, this is "word processing/ODT for emacs users." 2) The other route of things is kind of more "emacs for word processing users", or the technical side of building user interface elements that emacs simply does not have. For example, emacs users are probably happy to bind a key so that they can set the font size, make it bold, or set the color. That's not true for many not-already-emacs users. We would probably need a menu bar for such user interface elements similar to what libreoffice has. Is this possible to do in emacs? Maybe using the "embed GTK widgets" branch? Maybe these tools could only be exposed in GUI mode, and we assume that people using the terminal version are the users who do not need/want it. #2 seems like it would take a lot more work to get to, and would involve thinking about adding some tooling that emacs does not yet have. #1 seems fairly possible though... and why not have it if someone is willing to build it? We have tetris, IRC clients, video editing, and even opening PDF files (read-only). It would be interesting to have ODT support at least for emacs users' own needs. And probably we could work from that direction and gradually migrate to addressing #2 also. There are a lot of reactions on this thread that seem somewhat hesitant about emacs adding WYSIWIG support, but I suspect it's fear that #2 will corrupt the lisp machine interfaces that we already know and enjoy... but I doubt that the emacs community would let that happen anyway. But we can probably add some tooling that will make emacs more friendly and accessible to newcomers without hurting the things we already have. That all said, sounds like a crazy huge project. I guess someone would have to step up to adding ODT support, and given the number of projects on my plate, I cannot volunteer. :) - Chris PS: As much as I love to use org-mode to generate ODTs, it's not the same thing. I still get ODTs from people, and I have no way of editing those without converting it back... I'd like just a way to collaborate there in emacs :)