From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Achim Gratz Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 18:51:31 +0100 Organization: Linux Private Site Message-ID: <87r3vy17x8.fsf@Gertrud.fritz.box> References: <20141205123549.GA29331@thyrsus.com> <5486A704.6090305@cs.ucla.edu> <87k321jj4e.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <54876F7F.9000607@cs.ucla.edu> <87y4qfj2u9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <54889A57.5060905@cs.ucla.edu> <87vbljb9f4.fsf@wanadoo.es> <54889F6D.6060408@cs.ucla.edu> <87r3w7b83a.fsf@wanadoo.es> <5488C710.3000209@cs.ucla.edu> <871to7ayv9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <5488DC0C.2070402@cs.ucla.edu> <837fxyt78a.fsf@gnu.org> <87iohiujcy.fsf@Gertrud.fritz.box> <8761dg1ykk.fsf@Gertrud.fritz.box> <87388jz1ss.fsf@Gertrud.fritz.box> <87oar4x0ac.fsf@Gertrud.fritz.box> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1418838729 5638 80.91.229.3 (17 Dec 2014 17:52:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 17:52:09 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 17 18:52:02 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y1IlU-0003pJ-7O for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 18:52:00 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50918 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y1IlT-0005bE-FG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:51:59 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60073) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y1IlK-0005ar-JU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:51:57 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y1IlE-0002JM-AH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:51:50 -0500 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:39071) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y1IlE-0002J8-2u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:51:44 -0500 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y1IlC-0003j3-Lg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 18:51:43 +0100 Original-Received: from p4ff1c0f8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([79.241.192.248]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 18:51:42 +0100 Original-Received: from Stromeko by p4ff1c0f8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 18:51:42 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 52 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: p4ff1c0f8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:6aPh58CSPNZ+VIVp1VQW4srE4G0= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:180236 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > > So in essence you're saying that the requirement is semantic markup, but > > you don't care about the syntax. > > This is an interesting question. > > In the past, semantic markup was absolutely necessary. For instance, > @dfn and @emph both generate italic in TeX, but they appear different > in Info. This was because Info files don't have fonts. Distinctions need > to be made some other way. > > I have been assuming this is still necessary, but maybe it is not. I'd say that given your goals semantic markup is still necessary. Visual markup that somehow by convention doubles as semantic markup isn't a proper solution. It will work often enough to be attractive in the beginning and won't work often enough to be annoying in the long run. I think we need to make a three-fold distinction between the format that the documentation should be in (something standardized might be nice), the presentation of the documentation to the target audience (needs at least a handful of options) and the various ways to create content in this format. As said before, I don't think it is necessary to require each and every contributor to fully understand the intricacies of semantic markup if there's an easy (or easier at least) input method that keeps the markup in the background for most of the editing. THat method need not be perfect if any wrong guesses as to what the proper context is can easily be overridden. > If HTML-Info can represent these distinctions with fonts, the same > as in TeX, maybe we don't need semantic markup any more. Maybe > the same appearance can be used in all formats on line and on paper. I would like to eradicate the idea that somehow fonts or colors are going to be part of the markup or an indispensable part of the output. Styling by using fonts and colors is a good way to clarify meaning to many users, but we shouldn't forget about those users who simply can't use these two as a distinction for whatever reason. > But how would we represent them on a tty? They have colors but no fonts. A braille line has no fonts nor colors. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ Samples for the Waldorf Blofeld: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#BlofeldSamplesExtra