From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Exposing Isearch toggleable options Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 20:14:20 +0100 Message-ID: <87r3kdcws3.fsf@wanadoo.es> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1446146086 27421 80.91.229.3 (29 Oct 2015 19:14:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 19:14:46 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 29 20:14:37 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Zrsei-0001J0-O5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 20:14:36 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46023 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zrsei-0003ys-7T for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:14:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45804) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zrsee-0003yl-8p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:14:33 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zrseb-00026d-Fo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:14:32 -0400 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:38674) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zrseb-000260-9Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:14:29 -0400 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZrseZ-00019X-8b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 20:14:27 +0100 Original-Received: from 157.red-81-44-103.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([81.44.103.157]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 20:14:27 +0100 Original-Received: from ofv by 157.red-81-44-103.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 20:14:27 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 48 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 157.red-81-44-103.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Y2sbTzV8/C2/q82T8s8Jomz8smI= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:192926 Archived-At: Aldric Giacomoni writes: > In the wake of magit, Mickey Petersen (who wrote Mastering Emacs) wrote a > package called discover.el (blog intro + screenshot): > https://www.masteringemacs.org/article/discoverel-discover-emacs-context-menus > > > This might be a good direction for the conversation. > > I've been an emacs user for ~2 years now. I think some minimal > documentation / toggles in the magit spirit would go a long way in > demystifying the emacs behavior. > > As noted by someone else, I would consider it critical to indicate somehow > that there are other modifiers and options. > > I would, of course, want a toggle for this. I designed the Magit popup and implemented it on my fork (the Magit maintainer at the time then reimplemented it with a few differences instead of pulling my work, due to a miscommunication.) So you can take for granted that I like the Magit approach... for driving git. The same paradigm seems to work ok for parts of Org mode too. However, I don't think that the Magit popup is the correct solution for Emacs' poor discoverability, for several reasons. First of all, git is a single entry point with lots of commands and options. Magit assigns a key to groups of related commands and then lists the commands and its options. In Emacs, there would be a large number of groups and, within each group, lots of options. This would cause a high cognitive load, if it were practical at all to browse the large number of entries. I could go on about why the Magit popup approach is not the right one, for Emacs in general. The discoverability issue is a very interesting one. Even more when combined with ergonomics and convenience in general. Not too long ago I was surprised to see how discoverability *and* convenience are benefited from having a good completion mechanism on the M-x and set-variable prompts. Ido+flx was a big enhancement for a tiny effort, IMO. I'm sure that other packages can bring similar or superior benefits. Ido+flx work on command/variable names. It would be better to have conceptual relations among features, and exploit those relations contextually. Some type of smart search engine for features, with the right interfaces. [snip]