* First draft of the Emacs website @ 2015-11-28 23:29 Nicolas Petton 2015-11-28 23:51 ` Jean-Christophe Helary ` (10 more replies) 0 siblings, 11 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Petton @ 2015-11-28 23:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 362 bytes --] Hi guys, I think I'm ready to show my work on the website of Emacs: http://nicolas-petton.fr/ressources/emacs-website/ A few notes: - It's a work in progress - I only worked on the homepage - It's not yet responsive - Many links don't work yet - I haven't changed much the content of the website itself, it's mostly design Feedback welcome! Cheers, Nico [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 512 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-28 23:29 First draft of the Emacs website Nicolas Petton @ 2015-11-28 23:51 ` Jean-Christophe Helary 2015-11-29 0:03 ` Daniel Pimentel ` (9 subsequent siblings) 10 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Jean-Christophe Helary @ 2015-11-28 23:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Very nice ! Regarding the original contents and *not* your design :) I was wondering about 3 things: - the sub-title is weird, can't it be guessed that emacs lisp is a dialect of lisp ? Does "with extensions to support text editing" means that without extensions text editing is not supported? - the "highly customizable" feature seems to put the GUI and emacs lisp at the same level - the emphasis on the shortcut for the packaging system (it this indication really necessary?) Of course, it is a different topic so sorry for the hijacking... Jean-Christophe > On Nov 29, 2015, at 08:29, Nicolas Petton <nicolas@petton.fr> wrote: > > Hi guys, > > I think I'm ready to show my work on the website of Emacs: > > http://nicolas-petton.fr/ressources/emacs-website/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-28 23:29 First draft of the Emacs website Nicolas Petton 2015-11-28 23:51 ` Jean-Christophe Helary @ 2015-11-29 0:03 ` Daniel Pimentel 2015-11-29 1:02 ` Xue Fuqiao ` (8 subsequent siblings) 10 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Daniel Pimentel @ 2015-11-29 0:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nicolas Petton; +Cc: emacs-devel-bounces+d4n1=opmbx.org, emacs-devel Congratulation! Design is very beautiful. -- Daniel Pimentel (d4n1 3:) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-28 23:29 First draft of the Emacs website Nicolas Petton 2015-11-28 23:51 ` Jean-Christophe Helary 2015-11-29 0:03 ` Daniel Pimentel @ 2015-11-29 1:02 ` Xue Fuqiao 2015-11-29 1:26 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-29 8:06 ` Przemysław Wojnowski ` (7 subsequent siblings) 10 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Xue Fuqiao @ 2015-11-29 1:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nicolas Petton; +Cc: emacs-devel On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Nicolas Petton <nicolas@petton.fr> wrote: > Hi guys, > > I think I'm ready to show my work on the website of Emacs: > > http://nicolas-petton.fr/ressources/emacs-website/ Nice work! I've always thought that the logo of Emacs should be on the website, and now we have it! A few comments: * IMHO the color for the "Download for" links is too dark. #B67FD6 looks better to me. * Why do you put <span> and <a> in `<ul class="links">'? The content model for element `ul' is: "Zero or more li and script-supporting elements."[1] * We don't provide OS X binaries currently. What would the "MacOS X" link link to? * The "Take the Emacs tour" link is gone. But I think it's a pretty good tour/overview of GNU Emacs. Do you have plan to rewrite/update it? * It would be good to add an `alt' attribute for the FSF logo, like the original website :-) [1] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/single-page.html#the-ul-element ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 1:02 ` Xue Fuqiao @ 2015-11-29 1:26 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-29 2:19 ` Alex Dunn 2015-11-30 0:02 ` First draft of the Emacs website Xue Fuqiao 0 siblings, 2 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Petton @ 2015-11-29 1:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Xue Fuqiao; +Cc: emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1045 bytes --] Xue Fuqiao <xfq.free@gmail.com> writes: > Nice work! I've always thought that the logo of Emacs should be on the > website, and now we have it! Thanks! > A few comments: > > * IMHO the color for the "Download for" links is too dark. #B67FD6 > looks better to me. That's strange, but I can give it a try. Could you send me a screenshot? > * Why do you put <span> and <a> in `<ul class="links">'? The content > model for element `ul' is: "Zero or more li and script-supporting > elements."[1] It's a mistake, I'll fix it. > > * We don't provide OS X binaries currently. What would the "MacOS X" > link link to? Good question :-) (we do need to fix it, OS X is too popular to be ignored). > * The "Take the Emacs tour" link is gone. But I think it's a pretty > good tour/overview of GNU Emacs. Do you have plan to rewrite/update > it? Yes, It's definitely planned. > * It would be good to add an `alt' attribute for the FSF logo, like the > original website :-) Oops, will fix it. Thanks for your feedback! Nico [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 512 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 1:26 ` Nicolas Petton @ 2015-11-29 2:19 ` Alex Dunn 2015-11-29 3:31 ` Jean-Christophe Helary 2015-11-30 0:02 ` First draft of the Emacs website Xue Fuqiao 1 sibling, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Alex Dunn @ 2015-11-29 2:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nicolas Petton, Xue Fuqiao; +Cc: emacs-devel Is Aquamacs still popular? The Emacs subreddit links to http://emacsformacosx.com, which I had never heard of before. Homebrew also provides a decent experience on OS X, though I’m biased since I’m a maintainer. Nicolas Petton <nicolas@petton.fr> writes: > Xue Fuqiao <xfq.free@gmail.com> writes: > >> * We don't provide OS X binaries currently. What would the "MacOS X" >> link link to? > > Good question :-) (we do need to fix it, OS X is too popular to be ignored). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 2:19 ` Alex Dunn @ 2015-11-29 3:31 ` Jean-Christophe Helary 2015-11-29 5:42 ` Random832 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Jean-Christophe Helary @ 2015-11-29 3:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel > On Nov 29, 2015, at 11:19, Alex Dunn <dunn.alex@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Is Aquamacs still popular? The Emacs subreddit links to > http://emacsformacosx.com, which I had never heard of before. Homebrew > also provides a decent experience on OS X, though I’m biased since I’m a > maintainer. Aquamacs is popular but it seems to me that linking to homebrew would be closer to the expectations of Emacs users on OSX. Jean-Christophe Helary ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 3:31 ` Jean-Christophe Helary @ 2015-11-29 5:42 ` Random832 2015-11-29 8:15 ` David Caldwell 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Random832 @ 2015-11-29 5:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> writes: >> On Nov 29, 2015, at 11:19, Alex Dunn <dunn.alex@gmail.com> wrote: >> Is Aquamacs still popular? The Emacs subreddit links to >> http://emacsformacosx.com, which I had never heard of before. Homebrew >> also provides a decent experience on OS X, though I’m biased since I’m a >> maintainer. > > Aquamacs is popular but it seems to me that linking to homebrew would > be closer to the expectations of Emacs users on OSX. > > Jean-Christophe Helary The advantage [to the extent that it is an advantage] of the version at emacsformacosx.com is that it is a self-contained binary distribution not requiring one to open a terminal and paste magic shell scripts, but a more or less standard build (vs Aquamacs which is a fairly extensive patch set). One disadvantage (well, technically I haven't examined whether any of the others do anything about this) is that it doesn't do anything to ensure that "emacs" from the terminal won't run the ancient bundled Emacs (still 22, I think the last time this came up the theory was that Apple balked at the GPLv3). It might be best to have the OSX button to go to a landing page that outlines all of these options. An off-site link with no explanation isn't going to inspire confidence at any rate; even if there's no discussion of options a landing page with "OSX builds are not provided directly by the FSF, but Emacs is available through [link]Homebrew[/]" would be a better transition. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 5:42 ` Random832 @ 2015-11-29 8:15 ` David Caldwell 2015-11-29 14:25 ` Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-30 17:49 ` Emacs for Mac OS X bundle (was: First draft of the Emacs website) John Wiegley 0 siblings, 2 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: David Caldwell @ 2015-11-29 8:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Random832, emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2619 bytes --] On 11/28/15 9:42 PM, Random832 wrote: > The advantage [to the extent that it is an advantage] of the version at > emacsformacosx.com is that it is a self-contained binary distribution > not requiring one to open a terminal and paste magic shell scripts, but > a more or less standard build (vs Aquamacs which is a fairly extensive > patch set). > > One disadvantage (well, technically I haven't examined whether any of > the others do anything about this) is that it doesn't do anything to > ensure that "emacs" from the terminal won't run the ancient bundled > Emacs (still 22, I think the last time this came up the theory was that > Apple balked at the GPLv3). > > It might be best to have the OSX button to go to a landing page that > outlines all of these options. An off-site link with no explanation > isn't going to inspire confidence at any rate; even if there's no > discussion of options a landing page with "OSX builds are not provided > directly by the FSF, but Emacs is available through [link]Homebrew[/]" > would be a better transition. For what it's worth, I run emacsformacosx.com. Your points are spot on. I'll also mention that Homebrew also currently has the advantage of being able to link with librsvg, imagemagick, and gnutls—it's on my list of things to do to figure out how to bundle the dependencies up in Emacs.app so distribution works seamlessly. Emacs on OS X is always a little weird, because I tend to see Emacs users as mostly command-line centric, but Mac users as a whole definitely are not. When you look at the other Mac editors out there that people really like, they are all GUI based. SublimeText, TextMate, Atom, Xcode are the ones I think of. Homebrew fits with the command line centric view of the world. I love it and use it for almost all classic unix software I install, but there are definitely Mac Emacs users out there that do not use it. I think emacsformacosx.com is popular[1] because it fits with the thinking of Mac folks (just download a .dmg and drag-to-install) while still being plain old Emacs. At any rate, if the FSF wants official Emacs binaries for Mac OS X, I'm willing to help out. I've been making and distributing them for 15 years (since the Mac OS X 10.0 Beta) and I'll most likely keep doing it until I stop using Emacs or my Mac. -David [1] It averages about 1000 downloads per day, with odd spikes of about 3x the average. These happen around releases, but also randomly though the year–I suspect due to links from various blogs that end up on Twitter or Hacker News or Reddit. [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4239 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 8:15 ` David Caldwell @ 2015-11-29 14:25 ` Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-30 17:49 ` Emacs for Mac OS X bundle (was: First draft of the Emacs website) John Wiegley 1 sibling, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Dmitry Gutov @ 2015-11-29 14:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Caldwell, Random832, emacs-devel On 11/29/2015 10:15 AM, David Caldwell wrote: > When you look at the other Mac editors out there > that people really like, they are all GUI based. SublimeText, TextMate, > Atom, Xcode are the ones I think of. There's also Vim. It's rather popular in the Ruby hipster community. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Emacs for Mac OS X bundle (was: First draft of the Emacs website) 2015-11-29 8:15 ` David Caldwell 2015-11-29 14:25 ` Dmitry Gutov @ 2015-11-30 17:49 ` John Wiegley 2015-11-30 20:02 ` Emacs for Mac OS X bundle David Caldwell 1 sibling, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: John Wiegley @ 2015-11-30 17:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Caldwell; +Cc: Random832, emacs-devel >>>>> David Caldwell <david@porkrind.org> writes: > For what it's worth, I run emacsformacosx.com. Thank you so much for the service you've been providing, David! It really helps Mac users who want to acquire a modern GNU Emacs in a familiar way. How hard do you think it would be to get Emacs on the App Store? Would the sandboxing kill us? John ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs for Mac OS X bundle 2015-11-30 17:49 ` Emacs for Mac OS X bundle (was: First draft of the Emacs website) John Wiegley @ 2015-11-30 20:02 ` David Caldwell 2015-12-01 0:15 ` Xue Fuqiao 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: David Caldwell @ 2015-11-30 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Random832, emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1480 bytes --] On 11/30/15 9:49 AM, John Wiegley wrote: >>>>>> David Caldwell <david@porkrind.org> writes: > >> For what it's worth, I run emacsformacosx.com. > > Thank you so much for the service you've been providing, David! It really > helps Mac users who want to acquire a modern GNU Emacs in a familiar way. Thanks for the kind words. > How hard do you think it would be to get Emacs on the App Store? Would the > sandboxing kill us? There's potentially a lot to sandboxing, but I don't think it is insurmountable. The main/most obvious issue is making find-file work inside the sandbox. I've actually thought about this a little. I think it could be done with the addition of a small bit of code that runs once after install. I got the idea from the "Vox" app (which I believe is free on the store if you'd like to try it). They open a little window into which you are instructed to drag your hard disk from Finder. This gives them access to the whole disk and they go off searching for music. In Emacs's case it would hold on to that opaque token and use it as the root directory for all filesystem related things. Also, from my reading of it a couple years ago, the Mac App Store licensing appears compatible with the GPL, unlike the iOS App Store. But of course IANAL, etc. There are probably some more sandboxed APIs that I haven't thought about (like networking). Probably the best way is to just go for it and see what happens. -David [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4239 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs for Mac OS X bundle 2015-11-30 20:02 ` Emacs for Mac OS X bundle David Caldwell @ 2015-12-01 0:15 ` Xue Fuqiao 2015-12-01 1:40 ` David Caldwell 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Xue Fuqiao @ 2015-12-01 0:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Caldwell; +Cc: Random832, Emacs-devel On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 4:02 AM, David Caldwell <david@porkrind.org> wrote: > Also, from my reading of it a couple years ago, the Mac App Store > licensing appears compatible with the GPL, unlike the iOS App Store. But > of course IANAL, etc. Wikipedia[1] says that free software licensed only under the GPL is disallowed in Mac App Store. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_App_Store#Regulations ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs for Mac OS X bundle 2015-12-01 0:15 ` Xue Fuqiao @ 2015-12-01 1:40 ` David Caldwell 0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: David Caldwell @ 2015-12-01 1:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Xue Fuqiao; +Cc: jwiegley, Emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1132 bytes --] On 11/30/15 4:15 PM, Xue Fuqiao wrote: > On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 4:02 AM, David Caldwell <david@porkrind.org> wrote: > >> Also, from my reading of it a couple years ago, the Mac App Store >> licensing appears compatible with the GPL, unlike the iOS App Store. But >> of course IANAL, etc. > > Wikipedia[1] says that free software licensed only under the GPL is > disallowed in Mac App Store. > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_App_Store#Regulations One of the sited articles looks to be discussing "the iTunes App Store" which (AFAIK) is what we now call the iOS App Store (which has completely different licensing than the Mac App Store). The other article is from 2011. I believe I read the license in detail in the 2013-ish time frame, so it may have changed since the Adium folks looked into it. I wouldn't trust me but I wouldn't immediately pooh-pooh the idea either. Let's at least have someone knowledgeable look into the current licensing before we decide it's a no-go. It's too bad they don't have a source code repo for the license somewhere so we can look at the diffs. -David [-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 4239 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 1:26 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-29 2:19 ` Alex Dunn @ 2015-11-30 0:02 ` Xue Fuqiao 1 sibling, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Xue Fuqiao @ 2015-11-30 0:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nicolas Petton; +Cc: emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 396 bytes --] On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Nicolas Petton <nicolas@petton.fr> wrote: Hi Nicolas, >> * IMHO the color for the "Download for" links is too dark. #B67FD6 >> looks better to me. > > That's strange, but I can give it a try. Could you send me a screenshot? OK. I've attached the screenshots of the original color and my suggestion. IMHO the original one is too dark and a little hidden. [-- Attachment #2: 9041BD.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 125562 bytes --] [-- Attachment #3: B67FD6.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 120377 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-28 23:29 First draft of the Emacs website Nicolas Petton ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2015-11-29 1:02 ` Xue Fuqiao @ 2015-11-29 8:06 ` Przemysław Wojnowski 2015-11-29 10:27 ` Zack Piper 2015-11-29 10:15 ` David Engster ` (6 subsequent siblings) 10 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Przemysław Wojnowski @ 2015-11-29 8:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nicolas Petton; +Cc: emacs-devel To me it looks great! I'm not an artist, but I like the colors. One thing I would change is the screenshot at the top - the current one is simple like Notepad. IMHO it would be good if it would show more reach/appealing content. Is GIF an option? If so, it would be possible to show some action, like tricks from http://emacsrocks.com, but on code. Cheers, Przemysław ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 8:06 ` Przemysław Wojnowski @ 2015-11-29 10:27 ` Zack Piper 2015-11-29 12:36 ` Rasmus 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Zack Piper @ 2015-11-29 10:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 09:06:42AM +0100, Przemysław Wojnowski wrote: > > To me it looks great! I'm not an artist, but I like the colors. > > One thing I would change is the screenshot at the top - the current one > is simple like Notepad. IMHO it would be good if it would show more > reach/appealing content. Is GIF an option? If so, it would be possible > to show some action, like tricks from http://emacsrocks.com, but on > code. Perhaps a "Before and after configuration" comparison might be good. -- Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net> http://apertron.net ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 10:27 ` Zack Piper @ 2015-11-29 12:36 ` Rasmus 2015-11-29 12:58 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-29 14:00 ` Marcin Borkowski 0 siblings, 2 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Rasmus @ 2015-11-29 12:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net> writes: > On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 09:06:42AM +0100, Przemysław Wojnowski wrote: >> >> To me it looks great! I'm not an artist, but I like the colors. > >> >> One thing I would change is the screenshot at the top - the current one >> is simple like Notepad. IMHO it would be good if it would show more >> reach/appealing content. Is GIF an option? If so, it would be possible >> to show some action, like tricks from http://emacsrocks.com, but on >> code. > > Perhaps a "Before and after configuration" comparison might be good. What do you have in mind? Except for the toolbar and the menu bar my Emacs looks pretty much like the screenshot "after configuration"... It would be nice to have a "carousel" of "screenshots" (or htmlized buffers?) displaying e.g. a lisp-mode, C-buffer, Python-mode together with Python REPL, an Org buffer, message-mode etc. Or perhaps a section of the website dedicated to some examples of Emacs modes, like the "Applications using Guile" on http://gnu.org/software/guile/. Nicolas: First, thanks for the effort. When I put the browser in half width (so 960 px) the download buttons flow into the text and the page generally doesn’t work out. But probably you are already aware and it re the "not responsive yet". I don’t think the sand color used for the release notes works as well as the other colors. The charcoal and the purple are very pleasant. Rasmus -- This is the kind of tedious nonsense up with which I will not put ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 12:36 ` Rasmus @ 2015-11-29 12:58 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-29 14:00 ` Marcin Borkowski 1 sibling, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Petton @ 2015-11-29 12:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Rasmus, emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 562 bytes --] Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> writes: > First, thanks for the effort. > > When I put the browser in half width (so 960 px) the download buttons flow > into the text and the page generally doesn’t work out. But probably you > are already aware and it re the "not responsive yet". Exactly, I will work on that next. > I don’t think the sand color used for the release notes works as well as > the other colors. Hmmm, I obviously like it, but I'll see if I can darken it a bit. > The charcoal and the purple are very pleasant. Thanks. Nico [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 512 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 12:36 ` Rasmus 2015-11-29 12:58 ` Nicolas Petton @ 2015-11-29 14:00 ` Marcin Borkowski 1 sibling, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Marcin Borkowski @ 2015-11-29 14:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Rasmus; +Cc: emacs-devel On 2015-11-29, at 13:36, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> wrote: > It would be nice to have a "carousel" of "screenshots" (or htmlized > buffers?) displaying e.g. a lisp-mode, C-buffer, Python-mode together with > Python REPL, an Org buffer, message-mode etc. Or perhaps a section of the > website dedicated to some examples of Emacs modes, like the "Applications > using Guile" on http://gnu.org/software/guile/. What about something like p. 51 of this pdf: http://mbork.pl/download/Slides_about_LaTeX_editing.pdf ? > Nicolas: Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science Adam Mickiewicz University ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-28 23:29 First draft of the Emacs website Nicolas Petton ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 2015-11-29 8:06 ` Przemysław Wojnowski @ 2015-11-29 10:15 ` David Engster 2015-11-29 12:56 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-29 15:17 ` Dmitry Gutov ` (5 subsequent siblings) 10 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: David Engster @ 2015-11-29 10:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nicolas Petton; +Cc: emacs-devel Nicolas Petton writes: > Hi guys, > > I think I'm ready to show my work on the website of Emacs: > > http://nicolas-petton.fr/ressources/emacs-website/ Nice. Most importantly, it displays pretty well with eww. :-) But please don't use Google Webfonts. -David ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 10:15 ` David Engster @ 2015-11-29 12:56 ` Nicolas Petton 0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Petton @ 2015-11-29 12:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Engster; +Cc: emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 265 bytes --] David Engster <deng@randomsample.de> writes: > Nice. Most importantly, it displays pretty well with eww. :-) Good, I try to use decent HTML markup :) > But please don't use Google Webfonts. I'm actually not using them, I'll remove the line from the head. Nico [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 512 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-28 23:29 First draft of the Emacs website Nicolas Petton ` (4 preceding siblings ...) 2015-11-29 10:15 ` David Engster @ 2015-11-29 15:17 ` Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-29 19:38 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-29 16:21 ` Christopher Allan Webber ` (4 subsequent siblings) 10 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Dmitry Gutov @ 2015-11-29 15:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nicolas Petton, emacs-devel Hi Nicolas, On 11/29/2015 01:29 AM, Nicolas Petton wrote: > I think I'm ready to show my work on the website of Emacs: > > http://nicolas-petton.fr/ressources/emacs-website/ Thank you for your efforts. I think the current look is already better that the homepage we have now, but nevertheless, I think it exemplifies one of my pet peeves in UI design: using different contrast levels in different parts of a web page (or an application). Every part, by itself, looks very nice (*): I like the colors chosen for every section, and the dashed look of the download buttons makes a good impression if I just narrow my attention to that part of the web page. But if we look at the first page, the "GNU Emacs" logo, and the screenshot, are much brighter than the rest of the section. Which makes the download buttons fade into background. That might complicate life for vision-impaired visitors, for instance. The rest of the sections are clear, but as I scroll down the page, my eyes have to adjust to a different level of contrast as I look at each new section. I usually shy away from dark themes (and dark designs in general), because most websites and applications use light-background themes, but I think a design should at least be consistent internally, and pick just one side. Just my opinion. Cheers, Dmitry. (*) Regarding the "Releases" color set, I think it's good, and I'd rather you did something to the second section: it jumps out as very high-contrast, for some reason. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 15:17 ` Dmitry Gutov @ 2015-11-29 19:38 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-29 22:01 ` Dmitry Gutov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Petton @ 2015-11-29 19:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dmitry Gutov, emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1019 bytes --] Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes: > Thank you for your efforts. You're welcome! > I think the current look is already better that the homepage we have > now, but nevertheless, I think it exemplifies one of my pet peeves in UI > design: using different contrast levels in different parts of a web page > (or an application). I understand what you mean, but disagree with you. Each section has on purpose its own set of primary and secondary colors, going from a dark grey with the Emacs colors (slightly warmer set of colors), down to the red of the FSF. > (*) Regarding the "Releases" color set, I think it's good Thank you, I will see about making the "Releases" section darker though, and see if and how I can adjust the secondary colors of this section. > , and I'd rather you did something to the second section: it jumps out > as very high-contrast, for some reason. I can try to lower the contrast of the background gradient a bit, but I won't do it too much. Nico [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 512 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 19:38 ` Nicolas Petton @ 2015-11-29 22:01 ` Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-29 22:11 ` Nicolas Petton 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Dmitry Gutov @ 2015-11-29 22:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nicolas Petton, emacs-devel On 11/29/2015 09:38 PM, Nicolas Petton wrote: > I understand what you mean, but disagree with you. Each section has on > purpose its own set of primary and secondary colors, going from a dark > grey with the Emacs colors (slightly warmer set of colors), down to the > red of the FSF. I'm not saying that the set of colors is arbitrary. >> , and I'd rather you did something to the second section: it jumps out >> as very high-contrast, for some reason. > > I can try to lower the contrast of the background gradient a bit, but I > won't do it too much. Gradient? The background looks solid to me. I think you can just darken the text color a bit (e.g. to #ddd), and it'll help the situation. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 22:01 ` Dmitry Gutov @ 2015-11-29 22:11 ` Nicolas Petton 0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Petton @ 2015-11-29 22:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dmitry Gutov, emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 330 bytes --] Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes: > I'm not saying that the set of colors is arbitrary. Ok :-) > Gradient? The background looks solid to me. Well, it is a gradient :). > I think you can just darken the text color a bit (e.g. to #ddd), and > it'll help the situation. Thanks, it's indeed better. Nico [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 512 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-28 23:29 First draft of the Emacs website Nicolas Petton ` (5 preceding siblings ...) 2015-11-29 15:17 ` Dmitry Gutov @ 2015-11-29 16:21 ` Christopher Allan Webber 2015-11-29 19:39 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-29 21:45 ` Artur Malabarba ` (3 subsequent siblings) 10 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Christopher Allan Webber @ 2015-11-29 16:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nicolas Petton; +Cc: emacs-devel Nicolas Petton writes: > Hi guys, > > I think I'm ready to show my work on the website of Emacs: > > http://nicolas-petton.fr/ressources/emacs-website/ > > A few notes: > > - It's a work in progress > - I only worked on the homepage > - It's not yet responsive > - Many links don't work yet > - I haven't changed much the content of the website itself, it's mostly > design > > Feedback welcome! > > Cheers, > Nico Holy FRELL that looks nice! I can't wait to see this implemented! :) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 16:21 ` Christopher Allan Webber @ 2015-11-29 19:39 ` Nicolas Petton 0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Petton @ 2015-11-29 19:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Christopher Allan Webber; +Cc: emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 107 bytes --] Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber@dustycloud.org> writes: > Holy FRELL that looks nice! Thank you! Nico [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 512 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-28 23:29 First draft of the Emacs website Nicolas Petton ` (6 preceding siblings ...) 2015-11-29 16:21 ` Christopher Allan Webber @ 2015-11-29 21:45 ` Artur Malabarba 2015-11-29 22:11 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-30 16:06 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-30 19:48 ` Milan Zamazal ` (2 subsequent siblings) 10 siblings, 2 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Artur Malabarba @ 2015-11-29 21:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nicolas Petton; +Cc: emacs-devel Nicolas Petton <nicolas@petton.fr> writes: > Hi guys, > > I think I'm ready to show my work on the website of Emacs: > > http://nicolas-petton.fr/ressources/emacs-website/ Hi Nico. Big thanks for your work on this. > A few notes: > - I haven't changed much the content of the website itself, it's mostly > design Are you taking suggestions on content changes? > Feedback welcome! 1. The “Download for” buttons are a little hidden. I'd give them a light background and dark foreground, so they'd really look like buttons. 2. Everything is a little too spaced apart IMO. My laptop has a 17 inch monitor and neither of the first two sections fit in one screen for me. Can we make it more compact? 3. I'm also not a big fan of the way each section has it's own color palette (although each individual palette is very pretty). I've been seeing this style in a lot of websites lately, but I always find it distracting. 4. The links on the “Features” section are very hard to identify. Took me a while to realise they were links. > Cheers, > Nico Cheers ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 21:45 ` Artur Malabarba @ 2015-11-29 22:11 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-30 0:04 ` Artur Malabarba 2015-11-30 16:06 ` Nicolas Petton 1 sibling, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Petton @ 2015-11-29 22:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Artur Malabarba; +Cc: emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1274 bytes --] Artur Malabarba <bruce.connor.am@gmail.com> writes: > Hi Nico. Big thanks for your work on this. You're welcome :) > Are you taking suggestions on content changes? Not at this point (well, you can send your suggestions anyway, I'll keep them for later). > 1. The “Download for” buttons are a little hidden. I'd give them a light > background and dark foreground, so they'd really look like buttons. Ok, I'll try to make them more visible. > 2. Everything is a little too spaced apart IMO. My laptop has a 17 inch > monitor and neither of the first two sections fit in one screen for me. > Can we make it more compact? I'll give it a try, for the first 2 sections but space is an important part of this design. > 3. I'm also not a big fan of the way each section has it's own color > palette (although each individual palette is very pretty). I've been > seeing this style in a lot of websites lately, but I always find it > distracting. Well, can we just agree to disagree here? :) > 4. The links on the “Features” section are very hard to identify. Took > me a while to realise they were links. You are right, I'll improve that. > >> Cheers, >> Nico > > Cheers -- Nicolas Petton http://nicolas-petton.fr [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 512 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 22:11 ` Nicolas Petton @ 2015-11-30 0:04 ` Artur Malabarba 2015-11-30 1:29 ` Alex Dunn 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Artur Malabarba @ 2015-11-30 0:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nicolas Petton; +Cc: emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 846 bytes --] On 29 Nov 2015 10:11 pm, "Nicolas Petton" <nicolas@petton.fr> wrote: > > 1. The “Download for” buttons are a little hidden. I'd give them a light > > background and dark foreground, so they'd really look like buttons. > > Ok, I'll try to make them more visible. You can probably find a better solution than my suggestion. 😁 I just meant we can afford to make those buttons stand out more. > > 3. I'm also not a big fan of the way each section has it's own color > > palette (although each individual palette is very pretty). I've been > > seeing this style in a lot of websites lately, but I always find it > > distracting. > > Well, can we just agree to disagree here? :) Sure. You're doing a great job so your judgement should definitely take precedence over mine, and it's up to you how to weigh other's opinions. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1087 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-30 0:04 ` Artur Malabarba @ 2015-11-30 1:29 ` Alex Dunn 2015-11-30 9:43 ` Artur Malabarba 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Alex Dunn @ 2015-11-30 1:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bruce.connor.am, Nicolas Petton; +Cc: emacs-devel The light colors of the “Releases” section is a tad jarring after the three dark panels; but maybe that could be used to draw attention to the “Downloading” panel, which is currently pretty muted. Or is the “Releases” section more important, since most people looking for downloads will use the buttons at the top of the page? Artur Malabarba <bruce.connor.am@gmail.com> writes: > On 29 Nov 2015 10:11 pm, "Nicolas Petton" <nicolas@petton.fr> wrote: >> > 1. The “Download for” buttons are a little hidden. I'd give them a light >> > background and dark foreground, so they'd really look like buttons. >> >> Ok, I'll try to make them more visible. > > You can probably find a better solution than my suggestion. 😁 > I just meant we can afford to make those buttons stand out more. > >> > 3. I'm also not a big fan of the way each section has it's own color >> > palette (although each individual palette is very pretty). I've been >> > seeing this style in a lot of websites lately, but I always find it >> > distracting. >> >> Well, can we just agree to disagree here? :) > > Sure. You're doing a great job so your judgement should definitely take > precedence over mine, and it's up to you how to weigh other's opinions. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-30 1:29 ` Alex Dunn @ 2015-11-30 9:43 ` Artur Malabarba 2015-11-30 10:33 ` Dani Moncayo 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Artur Malabarba @ 2015-11-30 9:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Alex Dunn; +Cc: Nicolas Petton, emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 300 bytes --] On 30 Nov 2015 1:29 am, "Alex Dunn" <dunn.alex@gmail.com> wrote: > > > The light colors of the “Releases” section is a tad jarring after the > three dark panels; Oh yes, I forgot to mention. This bright background right after dark backgrounds hurts my pretty little eyes (at night). :-) [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 423 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-30 9:43 ` Artur Malabarba @ 2015-11-30 10:33 ` Dani Moncayo 2015-11-30 15:22 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Dani Moncayo @ 2015-11-30 10:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel; +Cc: Nicolas Petton >> The light colors of the “Releases” section is a tad jarring after the >> three dark panels; > > Oh yes, I forgot to mention. This bright background right after dark > backgrounds hurts my pretty little eyes (at night). :-) FWIW: I'd prefer a "light theme", that is, dark text over light background. This is the look of the rest of my desktop, so my eyes are used to it. (I'd say this is the case for many users too.) -- Dani Moncayo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* RE: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-30 10:33 ` Dani Moncayo @ 2015-11-30 15:22 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2015-11-30 15:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dani Moncayo, emacs-devel; +Cc: Nicolas Petton > FWIW: I'd prefer a "light theme", that is, dark text over light > background. This is the look of the rest of my desktop, so my eyes > are used to it. > > (I'd say this is the case for many users too.) +1 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-29 21:45 ` Artur Malabarba 2015-11-29 22:11 ` Nicolas Petton @ 2015-11-30 16:06 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-30 16:16 ` Yuri Khan 2015-12-01 14:37 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 2 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Petton @ 2015-11-30 16:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Artur Malabarba; +Cc: emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 175 bytes --] Hi guys, I updated the website based on (some of) your feedback. I also added initial support for mobile devices. nicolas-petton.fr/ressources/emacs-website/ Cheers, Nico [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 512 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-30 16:06 ` Nicolas Petton @ 2015-11-30 16:16 ` Yuri Khan 2015-11-30 16:23 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-12-01 14:37 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Yuri Khan @ 2015-11-30 16:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nicolas Petton; +Cc: Artur Malabarba, emacs-devel On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 10:06 PM, Nicolas Petton <nicolas@petton.fr> wrote: > I updated the website based on (some of) your feedback. I also added > initial support for mobile devices. What about not breaking support for desktops? Particularly, the focused button or hyperlink should be visually distinct from other buttons or hyperlinks. > nicolas-petton.fr/ressources/emacs-website/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-30 16:16 ` Yuri Khan @ 2015-11-30 16:23 ` Nicolas Petton 0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Petton @ 2015-11-30 16:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Yuri Khan; +Cc: Artur Malabarba, emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 211 bytes --] Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> writes: > What about not breaking support for desktops? Particularly, the > focused button or hyperlink should be visually distinct from other > buttons or hyperlinks. Fixed. [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 512 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-30 16:06 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-30 16:16 ` Yuri Khan @ 2015-12-01 14:37 ` Richard Stallman 2015-12-01 14:56 ` Nicolas Petton 1 sibling, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2015-12-01 14:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nicolas Petton; +Cc: bruce.connor.am, emacs-devel [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] Could you make sure the site works well in lynx on a Linux console? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-01 14:37 ` Richard Stallman @ 2015-12-01 14:56 ` Nicolas Petton 0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Petton @ 2015-12-01 14:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: bruce.connor.am, emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 144 bytes --] Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > Could you make sure the site works well in lynx on a Linux console? Yes, it's planned already. Nico [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 512 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-28 23:29 First draft of the Emacs website Nicolas Petton ` (7 preceding siblings ...) 2015-11-29 21:45 ` Artur Malabarba @ 2015-11-30 19:48 ` Milan Zamazal 2015-12-02 16:45 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-02 16:36 ` Random832 2015-12-03 13:58 ` Clément Pit--Claudel 10 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Milan Zamazal @ 2015-11-30 19:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Thank you for your effort! When designing the pages (and not only you and only these ones!), please don't forget about our handicapped fellows and try to comply with Web Accessibility Guidelines (see e.g. http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/wcag.php for start). Quickly looking at the present state, there are probably some problems with contrast and maybe with fonts. (Rule of thumb if nothing else: If something is not very easy to read for a perfectly sighted person then it's probably hard to read or unreadable for visually impaired visitors, dyslectics or other handicapped people.) It's also very good to skim through the page with a screen reader, if you have the opportunity, to discover possible problems for the blind visitors. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* RE: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-30 19:48 ` Milan Zamazal @ 2015-12-02 16:45 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-02 17:22 ` Nicolas Petton 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2015-12-02 16:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Milan Zamazal, emacs-devel > Thank you for your effort! > > When designing the pages (and not only you and only these ones!), please > don't forget about our handicapped fellows and try to comply with Web > Accessibility Guidelines (see e.g. http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/wcag.php > for start). > > Quickly looking at the present state, there are probably some problems > with contrast and maybe with fonts. (Rule of thumb if nothing else: If > something is not very easy to read for a perfectly sighted person then > it's probably hard to read or unreadable for visually impaired visitors, > dyslectics or other handicapped people.) It's also very good to skim > through the page with a screen reader, if you have the opportunity, to > discover possible problems for the blind visitors. FWIW, this is the most helpful feedback about the website, I think. And here is a one-page overview: http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/glance/. Trying to improve accessibility will likely automatically address some of the other suggestions/concerns that people have raised. Most of the things that make for an accessible site also make sense in terms of general UI sanity and ease of use. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* RE: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-02 16:45 ` Drew Adams @ 2015-12-02 17:22 ` Nicolas Petton 0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Petton @ 2015-12-02 17:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Drew Adams, Milan Zamazal, emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 212 bytes --] Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes: > FWIW, this is the most helpful feedback about the website, I think. > And here is a one-page overview: http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/glance/. Thanks, I agree. Nico [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 512 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-28 23:29 First draft of the Emacs website Nicolas Petton ` (8 preceding siblings ...) 2015-11-30 19:48 ` Milan Zamazal @ 2015-12-02 16:36 ` Random832 2015-12-02 17:12 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-12-02 23:47 ` Xue Fuqiao 2015-12-03 13:58 ` Clément Pit--Claudel 10 siblings, 2 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Random832 @ 2015-12-02 16:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel On 2015-11-28, Nicolas Petton <nicolas@petton.fr> wrote: > http://nicolas-petton.fr/ressources/emacs-website/ I did a test of disabling CSS and Javascript to see how well it degrades (also tested in lynx), and noticed the following artifacts: - Caused by non-hidden "nav-mobile" section: - Two copies of the Emacs logo and page heading - Unsightly "nav-toggle" button element. - As a decorative image, the Emacs logo and screenshot should have a blank alt text. Saying "Emacs" and "Screenshot" doesn't provide any accessibility benefit, though maybe the screenshot could instead have a longer description. - "Learn More" link appears inline directly after the screenshot, and is useless without javascript. - Suggestions for better semantic markup: - Use an unordered list element instead of a sequence of inline links for the navigation and the download link list. - Use kbd rather than code elements for M-x instructions. - FSF logo alt text should be Free Software Foundation. - FSF logo is completely invisible on a white background. - "Verbatim" copying permission statement is non-free. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-02 16:36 ` Random832 @ 2015-12-02 17:12 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-12-02 18:07 ` Yuri Khan 2015-12-02 23:47 ` Xue Fuqiao 1 sibling, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Petton @ 2015-12-02 17:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Random832, emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1158 bytes --] Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> writes: > On 2015-11-28, Nicolas Petton <nicolas@petton.fr> wrote: >> http://nicolas-petton.fr/ressources/emacs-website/ > > I did a test of disabling CSS and Javascript to see how well it degrades > (also tested in lynx), and noticed the following artifacts: > > - Caused by non-hidden "nav-mobile" section: > - Two copies of the Emacs logo and page heading > - Unsightly "nav-toggle" button element. Thank you, I noticed it already, and will fix this. > - As a decorative image, the Emacs logo and screenshot should have a > blank alt text. Saying "Emacs" and "Screenshot" doesn't provide any > accessibility benefit, though maybe the screenshot could instead have > a longer description. > - "Learn More" link appears inline directly after the screenshot, and is > useless without javascript. I'll add an href, thanks! > - FSF logo alt text should be Free Software Foundation. > - FSF logo is completely invisible on a white background. I'll change it to a light grey. > - "Verbatim" copying permission statement is non-free. This is on the current website as well. Thanks for your feedback! Nico [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 512 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-02 17:12 ` Nicolas Petton @ 2015-12-02 18:07 ` Yuri Khan 2015-12-02 18:26 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-12-02 18:29 ` Nicolas Petton 0 siblings, 2 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Yuri Khan @ 2015-12-02 18:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nicolas Petton; +Cc: Random832, Emacs developers On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 11:12 PM, Nicolas Petton <nicolas@petton.fr> wrote: >> - FSF logo is completely invisible on a white background. > > I'll change it to a light grey. Then it will be completely invisible on a light grey background. There are two reliable ways of ensuring visibility: * fill the whole background; or * add an outline at least 2px thick, of a color which gives good contrast with the foreground color. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-02 18:07 ` Yuri Khan @ 2015-12-02 18:26 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-12-02 18:29 ` Nicolas Petton 1 sibling, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Petton @ 2015-12-02 18:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Yuri Khan; +Cc: Random832, Emacs developers [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 198 bytes --] Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> writes: > There are two reliable ways of ensuring visibility: > > * fill the whole background; or The background is filled, or did you mean something else? Nico [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 512 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-02 18:07 ` Yuri Khan 2015-12-02 18:26 ` Nicolas Petton @ 2015-12-02 18:29 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-12-02 18:30 ` Yuri Khan 1 sibling, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Petton @ 2015-12-02 18:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Yuri Khan; +Cc: Random832, Emacs developers [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 140 bytes --] Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> writes: > * fill the whole background; or You meant the background of the png file itself, right? Nico [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 512 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-02 18:29 ` Nicolas Petton @ 2015-12-02 18:30 ` Yuri Khan 0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Yuri Khan @ 2015-12-02 18:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nicolas Petton; +Cc: Random832, Emacs developers On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 12:29 AM, Nicolas Petton <nicolas@petton.fr> wrote: >> * fill the whole background; or > > You meant the background of the png file itself, right? Of course. That’s the only thing that you can control when the user turns off or overrides your CSS. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-02 16:36 ` Random832 2015-12-02 17:12 ` Nicolas Petton @ 2015-12-02 23:47 ` Xue Fuqiao 2015-12-04 3:57 ` Random832 1 sibling, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Xue Fuqiao @ 2015-12-02 23:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Random832; +Cc: Emacs-devel On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 12:36 AM, Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> wrote: > - "Verbatim" copying permission statement is non-free. The standard copyright terms for GNU web pages is now the Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivs 3.0 United States License.[1] It used to be (and for a few pages still is): "Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article are permitted worldwide, without royalty, in any medium, provided this notice is preserved." [1] https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/3.0/us/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-02 23:47 ` Xue Fuqiao @ 2015-12-04 3:57 ` Random832 2015-12-04 5:17 ` License of the Emacs website (was: Re: First draft of the Emacs website) Chad Brown 2015-12-05 0:19 ` First draft of the Emacs website Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Random832 @ 2015-12-04 3:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel On 2015-12-02, Xue Fuqiao <xfq.free@gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 12:36 AM, Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> wrote: >> - "Verbatim" copying permission statement is non-free. > > The standard copyright terms for GNU web pages is now the Creative > Commons Attribution-NoDerivs 3.0 United States License. That's also non-free. Why not the GFDL, or CC-BY-SA? http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html specifically recommends against this license. It's not clear why website text (or layout, etc) is so different from documentation as to require different principles. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* License of the Emacs website (was: Re: First draft of the Emacs website) 2015-12-04 3:57 ` Random832 @ 2015-12-04 5:17 ` Chad Brown 2015-12-04 5:42 ` Random832 2015-12-05 0:19 ` First draft of the Emacs website Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Chad Brown @ 2015-12-04 5:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Random832; +Cc: emacs-tangents, emacs-devel Subject changed. > On 03 Dec 2015, at 19:57, Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> wrote: > > On 2015-12-02, Xue Fuqiao <xfq.free@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 12:36 AM, Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> wrote: >>> - "Verbatim" copying permission statement is non-free. >> >> The standard copyright terms for GNU web pages is now the Creative >> Commons Attribution-NoDerivs 3.0 United States License. > > That's also non-free. Why not the GFDL, or CC-BY-SA? > > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html specifically recommends > against this license. It's not clear why website text (or layout, etc) > is so different from documentation as to require different principles. That’s interesting, because http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.en.html says: The standard copyright terms for GNU web pages is now the Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivs 3.0 United States License. The web page you site also includes this: Works that express someone's opinion—memoirs, editorials, and so on—serve a fundamentally different purpose than works for practical use like software and documentation. Because of this, we expect them to provide recipients with a different set of permissions: just the permission to copy and distribute the work verbatim. Richard Stallman discusses this frequently in his speeches. Because so many licenses meet these criteria, we cannot list them all. If you are looking for one to use yourself, however, there are two that we recommend: * GNU Verbatim Copying License (#GNUVerbatim) This was the license used throughout the GNU web site for many years. It is very simple, and especially well-suited to written works. * Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivs 3.0 license (a.k.a. CC BY-ND) (#ccbynd) This is the license used throughout the GNU and FSF web sites. This license provides much the same permissions as our verbatim copying license, but it's much more detailed. We particularly recommend it for audio and/or video works of opinion. Please be specific about which Creative Commons license is being used. This seems like a discussion for someplace other than the emacs-devel list, so I tried (perhaps crudely?) to redirect it to emacs-tangents. Thanks, ~Chad ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: License of the Emacs website (was: Re: First draft of the Emacs website) 2015-12-04 5:17 ` License of the Emacs website (was: Re: First draft of the Emacs website) Chad Brown @ 2015-12-04 5:42 ` Random832 0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Random832 @ 2015-12-04 5:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-tangents On 2015-12-04, Chad Brown <yandros@gmail.com> wrote: > Works that express someone's opinion—memoirs, editorials, and > so on—serve a fundamentally different purpose than works for > practical use like software and documentation. I don't see how, in general, a software project website fits into these categories. Even if it did, I think concerns of misrepresentation (which I assume are the issue here) should be dealt with by non-copyright mechanisms. Or at most require a disclaimer. > This seems like a discussion for someplace other than the emacs-devel > list, so I tried (perhaps crudely?) to redirect it to emacs-tangents. I hadn't realized Gmane had it yet. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-04 3:57 ` Random832 2015-12-04 5:17 ` License of the Emacs website (was: Re: First draft of the Emacs website) Chad Brown @ 2015-12-05 0:19 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2015-12-05 0:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Random832; +Cc: emacs-devel [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] Pages whose purpose is educational should carry free licenses. Pages that state our point of view, our message, should carry licenses that do not permit modification. > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html specifically recommends > against this license. That's in the section on licenses for documentation. I will clarify the text there to make it clear the non-recommendation is about documentation only. Thanks for showing me this could be misunderstood. > It's not clear why website text (or layout, etc) > is so different from documentation as to require different principles. Some of the pages might be documentation -- if so, they should be under a free license. We should use the GFDL for compatibility with the Emacs manuals. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-11-28 23:29 First draft of the Emacs website Nicolas Petton ` (9 preceding siblings ...) 2015-12-02 16:36 ` Random832 @ 2015-12-03 13:58 ` Clément Pit--Claudel 2015-12-03 22:17 ` John Yates 10 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Clément Pit--Claudel @ 2015-12-03 13:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 570 bytes --] Hi Nicolas, The new website looks wonderful; I love it :) Thanks for your work! Clément. On 11/29/2015 12:29 AM, Nicolas Petton wrote: > Hi guys, > > I think I'm ready to show my work on the website of Emacs: > > http://nicolas-petton.fr/ressources/emacs-website/ > > A few notes: > > - It's a work in progress > - I only worked on the homepage > - It's not yet responsive > - Many links don't work yet > - I haven't changed much the content of the website itself, it's mostly > design > > Feedback welcome! > > Cheers, > Nico > [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 836 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-03 13:58 ` Clément Pit--Claudel @ 2015-12-03 22:17 ` John Yates 2015-12-03 22:30 ` Nicolas Petton ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: John Yates @ 2015-12-03 22:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Emacs developers [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2573 bytes --] Who is your primary audience? There is no point preaching to your choir. (Here your choir consists of you yourself, Emacs users and Lisp fans.) I would argue that the site should be focused on persuading those who know little or nothing about Emacs to give it a try. Such a person is likely to be someone who has been weened on a combination of GUI and command-line tools. (My assumption is that anyone who does not already have some exposure to the command-line is a lost cause, but I would be happy to be corrected.) Do not pitch as virtues aspects that a newbie most likely will perceive as a barrier to entry: * Hence any mention of Lisp seems inappropriate. We had better hope that Emacs' Out-Of-Box impression is good enough to motivate - in time - an interest in Lisp, rather than presume it. Even more off-putting are the fine points of various Lisp dialects and Lisp extensions. * Displaying Lisp code is probably not a great "come-on". * The parenthetical "M-x list-packages" makes sense only to someone already familiar with Emacs. Do not pitch as virtues packages that actually compare poorly to the competition: * Notably Emacs' support for gdb pales before most IDEs. * Newbies likely have a long, long road to travel before they will ever consider discarding their current GUI / WYSIWYG / web-based productivity tools for Emacs' text-only calendar, mail project planning packages. Style: * Generally brevity is a virtue. The text below the circular icons tends to be wordy. It feels like you are trying to persuade me by overwhelming me via "featuritis". * Excessive use of 'including'. * "Content-sensitive editing modes, including syntax coloring, for a variety of file types including plain text, source code, and HTML." (Awkward and - with two use of 'including' - hard to parse. What is a 'mode' to a newbie?) * "Complete built-in documentation, including a tutorial for new users." (Those are two separate items.) * "Full Unicode support for nearly all human languages and their scripts." (Language support is a bit of a stretch. The distinction between language and script is unnecessarily technical. I would mention support for editing of bi-directional text and support for additional encodings beyond Unicode (e.g. DOS code pages, ISO-8859-*, etc).) * "Highly customizable, using Emacs Lisp code or a graphical interface." (A casual reader might take that as claiming we have a configuration GUI. Customize is really little more than a text-based forms package. It is better than nothing but I would avoid over-selling it.) /john [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2944 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-03 22:17 ` John Yates @ 2015-12-03 22:30 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-12-03 22:57 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-03 23:59 ` Clément Pit--Claudel 2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Petton @ 2015-12-03 22:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: John Yates, Emacs developers [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 776 bytes --] John Yates <john@yates-sheets.org> writes: > Do not pitch as virtues aspects that a newbie most likely will perceive as > a barrier to entry: > * Hence any mention of Lisp seems inappropriate. We had better hope that > Emacs' Out-Of-Box impression is good enough to motivate - in time - an > interest in Lisp, rather than presume it. Even more off-putting are the > fine points of various Lisp dialects and Lisp extensions. > * Displaying Lisp code is probably not a great "come-on". > * The parenthetical "M-x list-packages" makes sense only to someone already > familiar with Emacs. [...] Thanks John. I focused for now on re-designing the current website, without touching its contents, but I will do it in a second step and your feedback is definitely useful! Nico [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 512 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* RE: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-03 22:17 ` John Yates 2015-12-03 22:30 ` Nicolas Petton @ 2015-12-03 22:57 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-03 23:26 ` John Yates 2015-12-03 23:59 ` Clément Pit--Claudel 2 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2015-12-03 22:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: John Yates, Emacs developers [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1218 bytes --] FWIW - (My assumption is that anyone who does not already have some exposure to the command-line is a lost cause, but I would be happy to be corrected.) I disagree. You do not need to be familiar with using a CLI to use Emacs. (I use M-x grep, and that's about it, these days.) * Hence any mention of Lisp seems inappropriate. We had better hope that Emacs' Out-Of-Box impression is good enough to motivate - in time - an interest in Lisp, rather than presume it. Even more off-putting are the fine points of various Lisp dialects and Lisp extensions. Not presuming "an interest in Lisp" is not the same as forbidding "any mention of Lisp". And I disagree that any mention of Lisp is inappropriate. I agree that no mention need be made of different Lisps or dive into specific aspects of Lisp. But it can be mentioned that you have available a powerful, easy-to-use (yes), very high-level programming language to extend and interact with Emacs. And yes, this is end-user stuff. (IMHO) * Displaying Lisp code is probably not a great "come-on". Simple Lisp code need not be a giant turn-off either, and need not be verboten in this context. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4811 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-03 22:57 ` Drew Adams @ 2015-12-03 23:26 ` John Yates 2015-12-04 0:58 ` Drew Adams ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: John Yates @ 2015-12-03 23:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Drew Adams; +Cc: Emacs developers [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1821 bytes --] Drew, You and I are old "grey beards". My point was that mentioning things that we - as seasoned users of Emacs - like is quite a bit different from imagining the website as a sales pitch to someone who has not used Emacs but _might_ - given an appropriate message - be coaxed into trying it. If you accept such messaging as the site's first goal then you have to try to put yourself in the mindset of such a viewer. Your comments suggest that perhaps you do not buy into that being the first goal. /john On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote: > FWIW - > > > > (My assumption is that anyone who does not already have some exposure to > the command-line is a lost cause, but I would be happy to be corrected.) > > > > I disagree. You do not need to be familiar with using a CLI to use Emacs. > (I use M-x grep, and that's about it, these days.) > > > > * Hence any mention of Lisp seems inappropriate. We had better hope that > Emacs' Out-Of-Box impression is good enough to motivate - in time - an > interest in Lisp, rather than presume it. Even more off-putting are the > fine points of various Lisp dialects and Lisp extensions. > > > > Not presuming "*an interest in Lisp*" is not the same as forbidding "*any > mention of Lisp*". And I disagree that any mention of Lisp is > inappropriate. > > > > I agree that no mention need be made of different Lisps or dive into > specific aspects of Lisp. > > > > But it can be mentioned that you have available a powerful, easy-to-use > (yes), very high-level programming language to extend and interact with > Emacs. And yes, this is end-user stuff. (IMHO) > > > > * Displaying Lisp code is probably not a great "come-on". > > > > Simple Lisp code need not be a giant turn-off either, and need not be > verboten in this context. > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4562 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* RE: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-03 23:26 ` John Yates @ 2015-12-04 0:58 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-08 13:05 ` Valentijn 2015-12-04 6:06 ` David Kastrup 2015-12-04 8:42 ` Eli Zaretskii 2 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2015-12-04 0:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: John Yates; +Cc: Emacs developers [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3414 bytes --] John, My comments might have suggested that to you, but I don't think they suggest that. I too think the site should address itself to, among others, and in particular, new users and young new users. I disagree that mention of Lisp need be offputting to such people. On the contrary, I think that we can point to the advantages of Emacs being a Lisp environment and being user-extensible by way of Lisp (among other advantages). We can agree to disagree about that. But I, no less than you, I think, have new users and young users in mind. Just because I have a grey beard, that does not mean that my suggestions are not aimed at those without grey beards and those (with or without beard, and regardless of color) who might be new users. If I were a 13-year old, and I knew little or nothing about Lisp or Emacs, I would be interested to hear something about Emacs being bathed in Lisp and being, in fact, a Lisp environment, and that I (yes, as only a newbie Emacs user) could use some simple Lisp to extend and customize Emacs to fit my 13-year-old self. That would be something that attracted me, as one 13 year-old, not something that put me off. All newbies, and all 13 year-olds, are not the same. It has to be presented carefully, of course. There should be no impression that one has to know Lisp to use Emacs. That doesn't mean that we can't mention Lisp as one of the BIG advantages that Emacs has to offer. Not to mention that would be, well, burying the lead - the main story. IMHO. Drew, You and I are old "grey beards". My point was that mentioning things that we - as seasoned users of Emacs - like is quite a bit different from imagining the website as a sales pitch to someone who has not used Emacs but _might_ - given an appropriate message - be coaxed into trying it. If you accept such messaging as the site's first goal then you have to try to put yourself in the mindset of such a viewer. Your comments suggest that perhaps you do not buy into that being the first goal. /john On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Drew Adams <HYPERLINK "mailto:drew.adams@oracle.com" \ndrew.adams@oracle.com> wrote: FWIW - (My assumption is that anyone who does not already have some exposure to the command-line is a lost cause, but I would be happy to be corrected.) I disagree. You do not need to be familiar with using a CLI to use Emacs. (I use M-x grep, and that's about it, these days.) * Hence any mention of Lisp seems inappropriate. We had better hope that Emacs' Out-Of-Box impression is good enough to motivate - in time - an interest in Lisp, rather than presume it. Even more off-putting are the fine points of various Lisp dialects and Lisp extensions. Not presuming "an interest in Lisp" is not the same as forbidding "any mention of Lisp". And I disagree that any mention of Lisp is inappropriate. I agree that no mention need be made of different Lisps or dive into specific aspects of Lisp. But it can be mentioned that you have available a powerful, easy-to-use (yes), very high-level programming language to extend and interact with Emacs. And yes, this is end-user stuff. (IMHO) * Displaying Lisp code is probably not a great "come-on". Simple Lisp code need not be a giant turn-off either, and need not be verboten in this context. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 9995 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-04 0:58 ` Drew Adams @ 2015-12-08 13:05 ` Valentijn 2015-12-08 15:09 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Valentijn @ 2015-12-08 13:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Drew Adams; +Cc: Emacs developers, John Yates [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3226 bytes --] On 03/12 16:58, Drew Adams wrote: > John, > My comments might have suggested that to you, but I don't think they suggest that. > > I too think the site should address itself to, among others, and in particular, new users and young new users. > > I disagree that mention of Lisp need be offputting to such people. On the contrary, I think that we can point to the advantages of Emacs being a Lisp environment and being user-extensible by way of Lisp (among other advantages). > > We can agree to disagree about that. But I, no less than you, I think, have new users and young users in mind. > Just because I have a grey beard, that does not mean that my suggestions are not aimed at those without grey beards and those (with or without beard, and regardless of color) who might be new users. > > If I were a 13-year old, and I knew little or nothing about Lisp or Emacs, I would be interested to hear something about Emacs being bathed in Lisp and being, in fact, a Lisp environment, and that I (yes, as only a newbie Emacs user) could use some simple Lisp to extend and customize Emacs to fit my 13-year-old self. > That would be something that attracted me, as one 13 year-old, not something that put me off. All newbies, and all 13 year-olds, are not the same. > It has to be presented carefully, of course. There should be no impression that one has to know Lisp to use Emacs. That doesn't mean that we can't mention Lisp as one of the BIG advantages that Emacs has to offer. Not to mention that would be, well, burying the lead - the main story. IMHO. > Drew, Drew, I'm might be able, as a seventeen year old (since two days!), to a somewhat interesting perspective on this. Some background information which might be useful: I'm a GNU/Linux user for the past two/threeish years, emacs user since a year, a ex-vim user and tend to use the commandline a lot. You're on the right track with the lisp thing and it's a very important thing to talk about but you're forgetting that the word Lisp doesn't really mean anything to people as young as me. I mostly know it as the thing that powers in Emacs and the old AI labs. What Lisp was to you is what Python is for us (at least I assume). Putting the emphasis on Emacs having a full porgramming language which just happens to be Lisp is, in my opinion, a better idea. One of the biggest, if not the biggest, things that made me interested in Emacs was the ease of customization and the high amount of plugins available. One of the biggest thing that annoyed me with vim is how slow it would get if you tried to install any plugin on it. It would take a minute to start up. Another thing are the great tools that Emacs has. Things like org-mode, eshell/ansi-term, gnus, etc... are one of the things we really should be spending more time on promoting. Recently I at least got one of my friends to try Emacs simply because he liked org-mode so much. Somewhat related is the fact that Emacs is such a powertool also helps. It really does feel like you can do anything and more with it. Thank you for your time, Valentijn -- BOFH excuse #122: because Bill Gates is a Jehovah's witness and so nothing can work on St. Swithin's day. [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 819 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* RE: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-08 13:05 ` Valentijn @ 2015-12-08 15:09 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-08 15:21 ` Spencer Boucher 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2015-12-08 15:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Valentijn; +Cc: Emacs developers, John Yates > > If I were a 13-year old, and I knew little or nothing about Lisp or > > Emacs, I would be interested to hear something about Emacs being > > bathed in Lisp and being, in fact, a Lisp environment, and that I > > (yes, as only a newbie Emacs user) could use some simple Lisp to > > extend and customize Emacs to fit my 13-year-old self. That would > > be something that attracted me, as one 13 year-old, not something > > that put me off. All newbies, and all 13 year-olds, are not the same. > > > > It has to be presented carefully, of course. There should be no > > impression that one has to know Lisp to use Emacs. That doesn't mean > > that we can't mention Lisp as one of the BIG advantages that Emacs > > has to offer. Not to mention that would be, well, burying the lead - > > the main story. IMHO. > > Drew, > > I'm might be able, as a seventeen year old (since two days!), to a > somewhat interesting perspective on this. Some background information > which might be useful: I'm a GNU/Linux user for the past two/threeish > years, emacs user since a year, a ex-vim user and tend to use the > commandline a lot. > > You're on the right track with the lisp thing and it's a very important > thing to talk about but you're forgetting that the word Lisp doesn't > really mean anything to people as young as me. I mostly know it as the > thing that powers in Emacs and the old AI labs. What Lisp was to you is > what Python is for us (at least I assume). Putting the emphasis on Emacs > having a full porgramming language which just happens to be Lisp is, in my > opinion, a better idea. > > One of the biggest, if not the biggest, things that made me interested in > Emacs was the ease of customization and the high amount of plugins > available. One of the biggest thing that annoyed me with vim is how slow > it would get if you tried to install any plugin on it. It would take a > minute to start up. > > Another thing are the great tools that Emacs has. Things like org-mode, > eshell/ansi-term, gnus, etc... are one of the things we really should be > spending more time on promoting. Recently I at least got one of my friends > to try Emacs simply because he liked org-mode so much. Somewhat related is > the fact that Emacs is such a powertool also helps. It really does feel > like you can do anything and more with it. > > Thank you for your time, > > Valentijn That all sounds good to me! I think we agree on what's important wrt the language environment for this editor, and wrt whether that is something to point out to newbies, old and new alike. At the end of the day, we do need to refer to the language by its name, I think, but we could stress that it is a "Python-like" language, to connect with what people might be more familiar with. Concentrate on its features rather than its name: Why someone should want to know that it is part of Emacs, even at the outset. What it brings to Emacs and its users. Point out that the extensive ability to customize Emacs, as well as the plethora of available "plug-ins", are thanks to its Python-like extension language (Lisp). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-08 15:09 ` Drew Adams @ 2015-12-08 15:21 ` Spencer Boucher 2015-12-08 16:08 ` David Kastrup ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Spencer Boucher @ 2015-12-08 15:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Drew Adams; +Cc: Valentijn, John Yates, Emacs developers [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 0 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 776 bytes --] > At the end of the day, we do need to refer to the language by its > name, I think, but we could stress that it is a "Python-like" > language, to connect with what people might be more familiar with. Calling elisp "python-like" might be a bit of a stretch :) > Concentrate on its features rather than its name: Why someone > should want to know that it is part of Emacs, even at the outset. > What it brings to Emacs and its users. Exactly. The fact that elisp is not Python is a GOOD thing. Even though I love Python and use it in my work (it was also my first real programming language), I wouldn't WANT it to be the language behind my editor. We should emphasize the things about lisp that make it the best choice for powering an editor (macros, homoiconicity, etc.). [-- Attachment #2.2.1: Type: text/html, Size: 885 bytes --] [-- Attachment #3.1: Type: text/html, Size: 2224 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-08 15:21 ` Spencer Boucher @ 2015-12-08 16:08 ` David Kastrup 2015-12-08 20:52 ` Marcin Borkowski 2015-12-09 6:06 ` First draft of the Emacs website Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2015-12-08 16:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Spencer Boucher; +Cc: Valentijn, Emacs developers, Drew Adams, John Yates Spencer Boucher <spencer@spencerboucher.com> writes: > <#multipart type=alternative><#part type=text/plain> > > >> At the end of the day, we do need to refer to the language by its >> name, I think, but we could stress that it is a "Python-like" >> language, to connect with what people might be more familiar with. > > > Calling elisp "python-like" might be a bit of a stretch :) adjust-parens is an installed package. Status: Installed in ‘adjust-parens-3.0/’ (unsigned). Delete Version: 3.0 Summary: Indent and dedent Lisp code, automatically adjust close parens Homepage: http://elpa.gnu.org/packages/adjust-parens.html Other versions: 3.0 (gnu). This package provides commands for indenting and dedenting Lisp code such that close parentheses and brackets are automatically adjusted to be consistent with the new level of indentation. When reading Lisp, the programmer pays attention to open parens and the close parens on the same line. But when a sexp spans more than one line, she deduces the close paren from indentation alone. Given that's how we read Lisp, this package aims to enable editing Lisp similarly: automatically adjust the close parens programmers ignore when reading. A result of this is an editing experience somewhat like python-mode, which also offers "indent" and "dedent" commands. There are differences because lisp-mode knows more due to existing parens. To use: (require 'adjust-parens) (add-hook 'emacs-lisp-mode-hook #'adjust-parens-mode) (add-hook 'clojure-mode-hook #'adjust-parens-mode) ;; etc This binds two keys in Lisp Mode: (local-set-key (kbd "TAB") 'lisp-indent-adjust-parens) (local-set-key (kbd "<backtab>") 'lisp-dedent-adjust-parens) lisp-indent-adjust-parens potentially calls indent-for-tab-command (the usual binding for TAB in Lisp Mode). Thus it should not interfere with other TAB features like completion-at-point. Some examples follow. | indicates the position of point. (let ((x 10) (y (some-func 20)))) | After one TAB: (let ((x 10) (y (some-func 20))) |) After three more TAB: (let ((x 10) (y (some-func 20 |)))) After two Shift-TAB to dedent: (let ((x 10) (y (some-func 20)) |)) When dedenting, the sexp may have sibling sexps on lines below. It makes little sense for those sexps to stay at the same indentation, because they cannot keep the same parent sexp without being moved completely. Thus they are dedented too. An example of this: (defun func () (save-excursion (other-func-1) |(other-func-2) (other-func-3))) After Shift-TAB: (defun func () (save-excursion (other-func-1)) |(other-func-2) (other-func-3)) If you indent again with TAB, the sexps siblings aren't indented: (defun func () (save-excursion (other-func-1) |(other-func-2)) (other-func-3)) Thus TAB and Shift-TAB are not exact inverse operations of each other, though they often seem to be. [back] -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-08 15:21 ` Spencer Boucher 2015-12-08 16:08 ` David Kastrup @ 2015-12-08 20:52 ` Marcin Borkowski 2015-12-08 21:51 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-10 5:27 ` Richard Stallman 2015-12-09 6:06 ` First draft of the Emacs website Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 2 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Marcin Borkowski @ 2015-12-08 20:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Spencer Boucher; +Cc: Valentijn, Emacs developers, Drew Adams, John Yates On 2015-12-08, at 16:21, Spencer Boucher <spencer@spencerboucher.com> wrote: >> At the end of the day, we do need to refer to the language by its >> name, I think, but we could stress that it is a "Python-like" >> language, to connect with what people might be more familiar with. > > Calling elisp "python-like" might be a bit of a stretch :) Well, as Peter Norvig put it, "Basically, Python can be seen as a dialect of Lisp with «traditional» syntax" (see http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html). I think Drew meant something along the lines "a stable, dynamically typed language with a bunch of built-in datatypes, a rich library, an (optional) object system and integrated tools like a bytecode compiler, interactive debugger, a docstring conformance checker etc." Regards, -- Marcin Borkowski http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science Adam Mickiewicz University ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* RE: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-08 20:52 ` Marcin Borkowski @ 2015-12-08 21:51 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-08 21:58 ` Drew Adams ` (2 more replies) 2015-12-10 5:27 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 3 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2015-12-08 21:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Marcin Borkowski, Spencer Boucher; +Cc: Valentijn, Emacs developers, John Yates > I think Drew meant something along the lines "a stable, dynamically > typed language with a bunch of built-in datatypes, a rich library, an > (optional) object system and integrated tools like a bytecode compiler, > interactive debugger, a docstring conformance checker etc." Sort of. Yes, concentrate on the _features_ that Lisp has to offer, not on the name. (We might not agree on which features are most important, but that's what discussion is for.) And point out _how_ these features are important to Emacs - (1) as a text editor and (2) as everything else that Emacs is, from a multi-language programming environment to a calendar, email client, personal organizer, whatever. The point is not to describe Lisp features. It is to describe Lisp features that particularly benefit Emacs, and to point out how so. "Why mention Lisp?" is really the same question here as "Why is Lisp helpful to Emacs?" Without giving an idea of _how_ Lisp features help, a feature list is not so useful. A different supporting language could still let you define your own commands, and bind keys, and customize faces or whatever. But the high-level, functional nature of Lisp lets you do those things more easily than some languages might. We don't want to set Lisp up against other languages. We do want to get across what it offers that benefits an editor and environment such as Emacs. And we can mention _Emacs_ "oddities" that (IMHO) contribute to Lisp's usefulness for Emacs, including: . Abundant hooks, which you can use to can tie in your own code at expected places, to extend behavior. . An advice system that more generally lets you reuse code, adapting it to your needs. . Dynamic binding (in addition to lexical), which lets you reuse and adapt code just by dynamically binding variables to different values. IOW, from the outset, Emacs intends for you to modify its behavior. This is perhaps the main thing that sets Emacs apart. And it takes this very seriously. On purpose, almost nothing in Emacs behavior is carved in stone. Lisp is in large part what gives Emacs its power and makes it more than a mere text editor, even one that is highly customizable. Features of the language are behind this: code as data, flexible ability to define macros, recursive functions (including higher-order), and whatever else we decide is important to point out. We haven't necessarily thought much about _how Lisp contributes_ to what makes Emacs Emacs, but it might be good to do so now. Even a noisy argument about what is important, and why, could be useful in deciding what to tell people about what makes Emacs special. Personally, I would _not_ insist upon the stability of the language, the presence of an object system, the extensive integrated tools, or even the rich library. Aside from the object system, those are expected of a mature language and are not particular to Lisp. (Maybe mention the object system but, so far, it is not used much, AFAIK, especially by users.) We need not focus on the name "Lisp"; it is the features that count. But neither should we shy away from mentioning "Lisp", IMO. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* RE: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-08 21:51 ` Drew Adams @ 2015-12-08 21:58 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-09 21:00 ` Marcin Borkowski 2015-12-10 5:28 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2015-12-08 21:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Marcin Borkowski, Spencer Boucher; +Cc: Valentijn, John Yates, Emacs developers After I sent the last reply it occurred to me that it might be useful to take a look at some of the things that RMS has written about the development of Emacs in conjunction with Lisp. A quick google pointed to this article. I know there are others as well; this just happened to be the second Google hit for "richard stallman emacs". It is mostly history, but there is some info here about the relation between Emacs and Lisp features. http://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.en.html And of course there is this, about the importance of dynamic binding to Emacs: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs-paper.html#SEC17 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-08 21:51 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-08 21:58 ` Drew Adams @ 2015-12-09 21:00 ` Marcin Borkowski 2015-12-10 5:28 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Marcin Borkowski @ 2015-12-09 21:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Drew Adams; +Cc: Valentijn, Emacs developers, Spencer Boucher, John Yates On 2015-12-08, at 22:51, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote: >> I think Drew meant something along the lines "a stable, dynamically >> typed language with a bunch of built-in datatypes, a rich library, an >> (optional) object system and integrated tools like a bytecode compiler, >> interactive debugger, a docstring conformance checker etc." > > Sort of. Yes, concentrate on the _features_ that Lisp has to > offer, not on the name. (We might not agree on which features > are most important, but that's what discussion is for.) Yes. > And point out _how_ these features are important to Emacs - > (1) as a text editor and (2) as everything else that Emacs is, > from a multi-language programming environment to a calendar, > email client, personal organizer, whatever. > > The point is not to describe Lisp features. It is to > describe Lisp features that particularly benefit Emacs, > and to point out how so. "Why mention Lisp?" is really > the same question here as "Why is Lisp helpful to Emacs?" > > Without giving an idea of _how_ Lisp features help, a > feature list is not so useful. A different supporting > language could still let you define your own commands, > and bind keys, and customize faces or whatever. But the > high-level, functional nature of Lisp lets you do those > things more easily than some languages might. > > We don't want to set Lisp up against other languages. > We do want to get across what it offers that benefits > an editor and environment such as Emacs. > > And we can mention _Emacs_ "oddities" that (IMHO) > contribute to Lisp's usefulness for Emacs, including: > > . Abundant hooks, which you can use to can tie in your > own code at expected places, to extend behavior. > > . An advice system that more generally lets you reuse > code, adapting it to your needs. > > . Dynamic binding (in addition to lexical), which lets > you reuse and adapt code just by dynamically binding > variables to different values. > > IOW, from the outset, Emacs intends for you to modify its > behavior. This is perhaps the main thing that sets Emacs > apart. And it takes this very seriously. On purpose, > almost nothing in Emacs behavior is carved in stone. This is especially important. Maybe it might even be a good idea to tell people that Emacs is a "framework" (whatever that means) to write custom text editors, which happen to contain two very good default editors as a template and an example;-). > Lisp is in large part what gives Emacs its power and makes > it more than a mere text editor, even one that is highly > customizable. Features of the language are behind this: > code as data, flexible ability to define macros, recursive > functions (including higher-order), and whatever else we > decide is important to point out. > > We haven't necessarily thought much about _how Lisp > contributes_ to what makes Emacs Emacs, but it might be > good to do so now. Even a noisy argument about what is > important, and why, could be useful in deciding what to > tell people about what makes Emacs special. Hear, hear! > Personally, I would _not_ insist upon the stability of the > language, the presence of an object system, the extensive > integrated tools, or even the rich library. Aside from the > object system, those are expected of a mature language and > are not particular to Lisp. (Maybe mention the object system > but, so far, it is not used much, AFAIK, especially by users.) I'm not sure whether I agree. You're right that those are expected of a mature language; the point is, that Emacs "extension language" _is_ mature (IOW, it is not a "toy language"). OTOH, many editors nowadays allow scripting in Python or JS, which are very mature languages, too. So maybe I'm wrong after all. And when I think of it, I guess that it _might_ be a good idea to stress that there is no such thing as an Emacs "plugin". In other tools, plugins are sometimes a second-category citizen, while in Emacs, the user's code has access to the same things as Emacs native code. IOW, Emacs is a very primitive (in terms of usability as a text editor) core, and 90% (or more) of functionality is a huge pile of "plugins", i.e., functions, which can be advised, redefined - all this on the fly. Of course, my wording here is not very good, I'd have to think about it a lot more, but you get the idea. > We need not focus on the name "Lisp"; it is the features > that count. But neither should we shy away from mentioning > "Lisp", IMO. Yes. Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science Adam Mickiewicz University ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-08 21:51 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-08 21:58 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-09 21:00 ` Marcin Borkowski @ 2015-12-10 5:28 ` Richard Stallman 2015-12-10 9:10 ` David Kastrup 2 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2015-12-10 5:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Drew Adams; +Cc: valentijn, john, spencer, emacs-devel [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > We don't want to set Lisp up against other languages. > We do want to get across what it offers that benefits > an editor and environment such as Emacs. Yes we do, to some extent. The Emacs web site should say this: Lisp is the most powerful and elegant of programming languages. If you want to see how powerful and elegant a programming language can be, you need to learn Lisp. It will give you standard for measuring other languages. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-10 5:28 ` Richard Stallman @ 2015-12-10 9:10 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2015-12-10 9:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: valentijn, emacs-devel, spencer, Drew Adams, john Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > We don't want to set Lisp up against other languages. > > We do want to get across what it offers that benefits > > an editor and environment such as Emacs. > > Yes we do, to some extent. The Emacs web site should say this: > > Lisp is the most powerful and elegant of programming languages. If > you want to see how powerful and elegant a programming language can > be, you need to learn Lisp. It will give you standard for measuring > other languages. It's more like a family of elegance rather than Lisp being its most elegant member. For example, a symbol has all of a function cell, a value cell (give and take lexical binding semantics), a property list (which is global and O(n) in access), a print name. How do you lexically scope function cell features? In Guile, for comparison, a symbol has a print name. Period. Bindings are either lexical or established in module variables. There is no difference between value/function cell, so you can just call whatever you want without using FUNCALL. I still don't really know what Lisp's LAMBDA special form is supposed to return. You can store the result in a variable, so it seems to be data, but you can also call it without using FUNCALL, so it seems to have a function cell. If you store it anywhere, you can no longer call it without FUNCALL. So it seems to have some duplicitous value of which it loses half whenever you do anything with it. So I don't buy that Lisp is elegance incarnated. There is some beauty running in its family but I don't really think any member got all of it. -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-08 20:52 ` Marcin Borkowski 2015-12-08 21:51 ` Drew Adams @ 2015-12-10 5:27 ` Richard Stallman 2015-12-10 16:13 ` Python vs Lisp (followups to -tangents) Random832 1 sibling, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2015-12-10 5:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Marcin Borkowski; +Cc: valentijn, john, spencer, drew.adams, emacs-devel [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Well, as Peter Norvig put it, "Basically, Python can be seen as > a dialect of Lisp with «traditional» syntax" (see > http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html). I looked at this some years ago, and I concluded there is only a little validity in it. The main essential features of Lisp are not present in Python. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Python vs Lisp (followups to -tangents) 2015-12-10 5:27 ` Richard Stallman @ 2015-12-10 16:13 ` Random832 2015-12-10 18:40 ` Sam Steingold 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Random832 @ 2015-12-10 16:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-tangents; +Cc: emacs-devel On 2015-12-10, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: > I looked at this some years ago, and I concluded there is only a > little validity in it. The main essential features of Lisp are not > present in Python. For some clue of what you're talking about, your previous statement on this matter was: > I skimmed documentation of Python after people told me it was > fundamentally similar to Lisp. My conclusion is that that is > not so. `read', `eval', and `print' are all missing in Python. I must admit, I don't fully understand what you mean by this. Print is the most confusing. As a feature, Lisp's 'print' can be described as: Produce a string representation which can be read back of some objects (certainly not *all* objects - not buffers or subroutines, for example, and it's not structure-preserving for lists of lists), and display it on standard output. Python's 'repr' could be regarded as an exact match in concept for prin1-to-string, a building block from which Lisp's 'print' can be trivially made. The essential feature - that there is a way to get a string that can be read back for objects for which it is reasonable/easy - is present. Python's 'eval'/'exec' normally evaluates code directly from a string, skipping the need for 'read' entirely. However, if desired, the 'ast' module provides a rich framework for working with expression trees - the only difference is that they're built from class-based objects instead of just being a list of lists/symbols/literals. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: Python vs Lisp (followups to -tangents) 2015-12-10 16:13 ` Python vs Lisp (followups to -tangents) Random832 @ 2015-12-10 18:40 ` Sam Steingold 2015-12-10 22:31 ` Random832 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Sam Steingold @ 2015-12-10 18:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel; +Cc: emacs-tangents > * Random832 <enaqbz832@snfgznvy.pbz> [2015-12-10 16:13:30 +0000]: > > On 2015-12-10, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: > >> I skimmed documentation of Python after people told me it was >> fundamentally similar to Lisp. My conclusion is that that is >> not so. `read', `eval', and `print' are all missing in Python. > > I must admit, I don't fully understand what you mean by this. > > Print is the most confusing. As a feature, Lisp's 'print' can be > described as: Produce a string representation which can be read > back of some objects (certainly not *all* objects - not buffers > or subroutines, for example, and it's not structure-preserving > for lists of lists), and display it on standard output. This is false. Nested lists are certainly printed readably: --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- (defvar l '(1 (2 3) 4 (5 (6 (7 (8)))))) (equal l (read (prin1-to-string l))) ==> t --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- > Python's 'repr' could be regarded as an exact match in concept > for prin1-to-string, a building block from which Lisp's 'print' > can be trivially made. The essential feature - that there is a > way to get a string that can be read back for objects for which > it is reasonable/easy - is present. True, but irrelevant. An important feature is missing: repr is not defined for classes automatically. > Python's 'eval'/'exec' normally evaluates code directly from a > string, skipping the need for 'read' entirely. A string is too unstructured. > However, if desired, the 'ast' module provides a rich framework for > working with expression trees - the only difference is that they're > built from class-based objects instead of just being a list of > lists/symbols/literals. These class-based objects cannot be printed readably (IIUC). The point Richard is making is that Python lacks macros, i.e., you cannot easily write code which writes code. You have to either operate at the level of strings (which is hard to get right) or at the level of AST (which is even harder). Even more succinctly, in Lisp data and code are the same: lists of lists, symbols, strings &c. In Python, data is (mostly) strings and code is AST. -- Sam Steingold (http://sds.podval.org/) on Ubuntu 15.10 (wily) X 11.0.11702000 http://www.childpsy.net/ http://memri.org http://islamexposedonline.com http://truepeace.org http://www.dhimmitude.org http://camera.org Old Age Comes at a Bad Time. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: Python vs Lisp (followups to -tangents) 2015-12-10 18:40 ` Sam Steingold @ 2015-12-10 22:31 ` Random832 2015-12-16 15:57 ` Sam Steingold 2015-12-16 17:56 ` Christopher Allan Webber 0 siblings, 2 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Random832 @ 2015-12-10 22:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel; +Cc: emacs-tangents On 2015-12-10, Sam Steingold <sds@gnu.org> wrote: > This is false. > Nested lists are certainly printed readably: What I meant by "not structure-preserving" is that the output is the same, ((1 2) (1 2)), for these lists: (let ((x '((1 2) (1 2)))) (eq (car x) (cadr x))) ==> nil (let* ((a '(1 2)) (x `(,a ,a))) (eq (car x) (cadr x))) ==> t (let ((x (read "((1 2) (1 2))"))) (eq (car x) (cadr x))) ==> nil (Or for that matter, let* ((b '(2)) (x (list (cons 1 b) (cons 1 b))))...) > True, but irrelevant. >An important feature is missing: repr is not defined for classes > automatically. Sure it is. It's just defined to the same kind of useless value that Lisp has for buffers and subroutines. >> Python's 'eval'/'exec' normally evaluates code directly from a >> string, skipping the need for 'read' entirely. > > A string is too unstructured. > >> However, if desired, the 'ast' module provides a rich framework for >> working with expression trees - the only difference is that they're >> built from class-based objects instead of just being a list of >> lists/symbols/literals. > > These class-based objects cannot be printed readably (IIUC). It's unfortunate that this is not their repr output, but the ast.dump function provides this: >>> ast.dump(ast.parse("1 + 1")) 'Module(body=[Expr(value=BinOp(left=Num(n=1), op=Add(), right=Num(n=1)))])' >>> eval(ast.dump(ast.parse("1 + 1")), ast.__dict__) <_ast.Module object at 0x7fcd79b24908> > The point Richard is making is that Python lacks macros, i.e., you > cannot easily write code which writes code. > You have to either operate at the level of strings (which is hard to get > right) or at the level of AST (which is even harder). I don't see how operating at the level of AST is harder than operating at the level of lists (backquote operates above the level of lists; it automatically searches the code you give it for placeholders to substitute values in. It probably wouldn't be hard to write an equivalent in Python.) > Even more succinctly, in Lisp data and code are the same: lists of > lists, symbols, strings &c. > In Python, data is (mostly) strings and code is AST. I guess I don't see how being a little rough around the edges or not working exactly the same way is the same thing as missing the essential features entirely. And this really isn't a valid objection to the claim being discussed, which is that Python is similar to a hypothetical M-expression lisp. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: Python vs Lisp (followups to -tangents) 2015-12-10 22:31 ` Random832 @ 2015-12-16 15:57 ` Sam Steingold 2015-12-16 16:32 ` Random832 2015-12-16 17:56 ` Christopher Allan Webber 1 sibling, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Sam Steingold @ 2015-12-16 15:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel; +Cc: emacs-tangents > * Random832 <enaqbz832@snfgznvy.pbz> [2015-12-10 22:31:49 +0000]: > > On 2015-12-10, Sam Steingold <sds@gnu.org> wrote: >> This is false. >> Nested lists are certainly printed readably: > > What I meant by "not structure-preserving" is that the output is > the same, ((1 2) (1 2)), for these lists: > > (let ((x '((1 2) (1 2)))) (eq (car x) (cadr x))) ==> nil > (let* ((a '(1 2)) (x `(,a ,a))) (eq (car x) (cadr x))) ==> t > (let ((x (read "((1 2) (1 2))"))) (eq (car x) (cadr x))) ==> nil > > (Or for that matter, let* > ((b '(2)) (x (list (cons 1 b) (cons 1 b))))...) please examine the `print-circle' variable. >> True, but irrelevant. >>An important feature is missing: repr is not defined for classes >> automatically. > > Sure it is. It's just defined to the same kind of useless value > that Lisp has for buffers and subroutines. The #<...> format is reserved for objects which cannot be meaningfully read back. Still, it contains plenty of information for a human. Python prints junk when it could have been printing machine-readable info. >>> Python's 'eval'/'exec' normally evaluates code directly from a >>> string, skipping the need for 'read' entirely. >> >> A string is too unstructured. >> >>> However, if desired, the 'ast' module provides a rich framework for >>> working with expression trees - the only difference is that they're >>> built from class-based objects instead of just being a list of >>> lists/symbols/literals. >> >> These class-based objects cannot be printed readably (IIUC). > > It's unfortunate that this is not their repr output, but the > ast.dump function provides this: > >>>> ast.dump(ast.parse("1 + 1")) > 'Module(body=[Expr(value=BinOp(left=Num(n=1), op=Add(), right=Num(n=1)))])' >>>> eval(ast.dump(ast.parse("1 + 1")), ast.__dict__) > <_ast.Module object at 0x7fcd79b24908> yep, with some additional cruft Python can almost do something that Lisp does for free. >> The point Richard is making is that Python lacks macros, i.e., you >> cannot easily write code which writes code. >> You have to either operate at the level of strings (which is hard to get >> right) or at the level of AST (which is even harder). > > I don't see how operating at the level of AST is harder than > operating at the level of lists (backquote operates above the > level of lists; it automatically searches the code you give it > for placeholders to substitute values in. It probably wouldn't > be hard to write an equivalent in Python.) I am afraid you do not quite understand what you are talking about. >> Even more succinctly, in Lisp data and code are the same: lists of >> lists, symbols, strings &c. >> In Python, data is (mostly) strings and code is AST. > > I guess I don't see how being a little rough around the edges or > not working exactly the same way is the same thing as missing > the essential features entirely. > > And this really isn't a valid objection to the claim being > discussed, which is that Python is similar to a hypothetical > M-expression lisp. You have seen a car but never rode or driven one and you are trying to convince me that your tricycle is better. Seriously, this is the wrong forum for this discussion. I suggest that you learn more about Lisp (see, e.g., Paul Graham's "On Lisp", or http://letoverlambda.com/). -- Sam Steingold (http://sds.podval.org/) on Ubuntu 15.10 (wily) X 11.0.11702000 http://www.childpsy.net/ http://think-israel.org http://americancensorship.org http://openvotingconsortium.org http://memri.org http://mideasttruth.com "A pint of sweat will save a gallon of blood." -- George S. Patton ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: Python vs Lisp (followups to -tangents) 2015-12-16 15:57 ` Sam Steingold @ 2015-12-16 16:32 ` Random832 0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Random832 @ 2015-12-16 16:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-tangents Sam Steingold <sds@gnu.org> writes: > You have seen a car but never rode or driven one and you are trying to > convince me that your tricycle is better. The point of the statement you were replying to here was rather that I'm not convinced that an M-expression lisp isn't more like a tricycle than a car. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: Python vs Lisp (followups to -tangents) 2015-12-10 22:31 ` Random832 2015-12-16 15:57 ` Sam Steingold @ 2015-12-16 17:56 ` Christopher Allan Webber 1 sibling, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Christopher Allan Webber @ 2015-12-16 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Random832; +Cc: emacs-tangents, emacs-devel Random832 writes: >> The point Richard is making is that Python lacks macros, i.e., you >> cannot easily write code which writes code. >> You have to either operate at the level of strings (which is hard to get >> right) or at the level of AST (which is even harder). > > I don't see how operating at the level of AST is harder than > operating at the level of lists (backquote operates above the > level of lists; it automatically searches the code you give it > for placeholders to substitute values in. It probably wouldn't > be hard to write an equivalent in Python.) So, I think this thread is getting fairly off topic for the list, but I can't resist chiming in here. A project I've contributed to occasionally is Hy, which is sort of a lisp that uses s-expressions (yes, you do need them if you want homoiconic properties) which compiles down to Python's AST. It's pretty cool, because you can now write macros for Python and do other sorts of lispy things that are impossible otherwise. See: http://hy.readthedocs.org/en/latest/tutorial.html Doing this required building a lisp like system on top of Python though. To add new operations to the language meant making the language homoiconic in some way, and yes, that meant using Python lists to make s-expressions. And yeah, you could compose with Python then. I think in most ways, Hy was a real lisp, just one that used cpython as a virtual machine. However, there are downsides to using a lisp on top of something that was never intended to be a lisp, which I learned the hard way. I tried writing a serious system in Hy, and eventually had to move to Guile instead. Why? Because once you have macros, it becomes very difficult to tell what line number you're on in (the level of transformations we did made it so we couldn't keep around that information by the time we got to the AST, and it was hard to reason about what was going on there). This meant debugging was nearly impossible, because when debugging in Python, line numbers is your primary context for determining where you are. I'm not just talking about pdb.set_trace() (though that too); even tracebacks became impossible to deal with. Thus Hy is a pretty cool toy to play with, and kind of nice for writing a quick DSL on top of Python. And it *has* proven that you could treat the Python AST as something to compile down to and have macros. But even there, it looked like lisp, and even once you had that, underlying decisions about the implementation you're building on top of can make things difficult. Still fun to work on though! Also a great community and a great route for Python type people who want to dip their toe into lisp-land. And a good chance to learn the above lessons the hard way. :) - Chris ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-08 15:21 ` Spencer Boucher 2015-12-08 16:08 ` David Kastrup 2015-12-08 20:52 ` Marcin Borkowski @ 2015-12-09 6:06 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2015-12-09 6:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Spencer Boucher; +Cc: valentijn, emacs-devel, drew.adams, john [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > At the end of the day, we do need to refer to the language by its > > name, I think, but we could stress that it is a "Python-like" > > language, to connect with what people might be more familiar with. > Calling elisp "python-like" might be a bit of a stretch :) Calling Emacs Lisp "python-like" is derogatory to Emacs Lisp. Python has some of the characteristics that make Lisp superior, but not all of them. Lisp is the most elegant and powerful programming language. That is what we should say. In Lisp, programs are structured data and it is easy to write other Lisp programs to operate on them. Programmers that don't know Lisp do not realize what is missing in other prograamming languages. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-03 23:26 ` John Yates 2015-12-04 0:58 ` Drew Adams @ 2015-12-04 6:06 ` David Kastrup 2015-12-04 9:37 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-12-04 8:42 ` Eli Zaretskii 2 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2015-12-04 6:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: John Yates; +Cc: Drew Adams, Emacs developers John Yates <john@yates-sheets.org> writes: > Drew, > > You and I are old "grey beards". My point was that mentioning things that > we - as seasoned users of Emacs - like is quite a bit different from > imagining the website as a sales pitch to someone who has not used Emacs > but _might_ - given an appropriate message - be coaxed into trying it. If > you accept such messaging as the site's first goal then you have to try to > put yourself in the mindset of such a viewer. > > Your comments suggest that perhaps you do not buy into that being the first > goal. Why would a newcomer be interested in an old tool that merely does what the new tools already do? "Run with the herd like an octogenarian" is not a sales pitch. For better or worse, the reason to choose Emacs over other options is for the things it does differently, not the things it tries doing the same. -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-04 6:06 ` David Kastrup @ 2015-12-04 9:37 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-12-04 9:42 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-12-04 9:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs-devel, drew.adams, john > From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> > Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2015 07:06:38 +0100 > Cc: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>, Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org> > > Why would a newcomer be interested in an old tool that merely does what > the new tools already do? Because all the cool guys use it? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-04 9:37 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-12-04 9:42 ` David Kastrup 2015-12-04 10:11 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2015-12-04 9:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel, drew.adams, john Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: >> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> >> Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2015 07:06:38 +0100 >> Cc: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>, Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org> >> >> Why would a newcomer be interested in an old tool that merely does what >> the new tools already do? > > Because all the cool guys use it? You got me there. -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-04 9:42 ` David Kastrup @ 2015-12-04 10:11 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-12-04 10:42 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-12-04 10:44 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 2 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-12-04 10:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs-devel, drew.adams, john > From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> > Cc: john@yates-sheets.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2015 10:42:37 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: > > >> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> > >> Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2015 07:06:38 +0100 > >> Cc: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>, Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org> > >> > >> Why would a newcomer be interested in an old tool that merely does what > >> the new tools already do? > > > > Because all the cool guys use it? > > You got me there. Maybe the Web site should have this somewhere, then. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-04 10:11 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-12-04 10:42 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-12-04 10:44 ` David Kastrup 1 sibling, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Nicolas Petton @ 2015-12-04 10:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii, David Kastrup; +Cc: john, drew.adams, emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 192 bytes --] Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: >> > Because all the cool guys use it? >> >> You got me there. > > Maybe the Web site should have this somewhere, then. Haha, why not! Nico [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 512 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-04 10:11 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-12-04 10:42 ` Nicolas Petton @ 2015-12-04 10:44 ` David Kastrup 2015-12-04 11:03 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-12-04 22:26 ` Paul Eggert 1 sibling, 2 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2015-12-04 10:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel, drew.adams, john Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: >> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> >> Cc: john@yates-sheets.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2015 10:42:37 +0100 >> >> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: >> >> >> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> >> >> Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2015 07:06:38 +0100 >> >> Cc: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>, Emacs developers >> >> <emacs-devel@gnu.org> >> >> >> >> Why would a newcomer be interested in an old tool that merely does what >> >> the new tools already do? >> > >> > Because all the cool guys use it? >> >> You got me there. > > Maybe the Web site should have this somewhere, then. Shrug. Emacs is where the cool guys go when they have work to do. In particular, Emacs is not what the "cool guys" call a "chick magnet". The Emacs developer list is less frequented by women in my impression than the average gay bar. In Victorian England. So while we all love each other dearly, I am not sure we'd be doing us much of a favor by overadvertising how uniformly wonderful all of us are. Give people a chance to discover it on their own. -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-04 10:44 ` David Kastrup @ 2015-12-04 11:03 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-12-04 22:26 ` Paul Eggert 1 sibling, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-12-04 11:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs-devel, drew.adams, john > From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> > Cc: john@yates-sheets.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2015 11:44:47 +0100 > > So while we all love each other dearly, I am not sure we'd be doing us > much of a favor by overadvertising how uniformly wonderful all of us > are. Give people a chance to discover it on their own. What I actually had in mind is showing a list of well-known names of people who are Emacs users. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-04 10:44 ` David Kastrup 2015-12-04 11:03 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-12-04 22:26 ` Paul Eggert 2015-12-04 22:30 ` David Kastrup 1 sibling, 1 reply; 89+ messages in thread From: Paul Eggert @ 2015-12-04 22:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs-devel On 12/04/2015 02:44 AM, David Kastrup wrote: > The Emacs developer list is less frequented by women in my impression > than the average gay bar. In Victorian England. I'm afraid you'll need a better analogy, as it was reasonably common for women to *run* the gay bars and meeting houses in Victorian England. For example, see Martha Stacey's well-known house in Wakefield Street, Bloomsbury, circa 1870. Going back further in time, perhaps the best-known molly-house in all of pre-Victorian England was the one run by Margarat Clap in Field Lane, Holborn, circa 1725. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-04 22:26 ` Paul Eggert @ 2015-12-04 22:30 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2015-12-04 22:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Paul Eggert; +Cc: emacs-devel Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> writes: > On 12/04/2015 02:44 AM, David Kastrup wrote: >> The Emacs developer list is less frequented by women in my impression >> than the average gay bar. In Victorian England. > > I'm afraid you'll need a better analogy, as it was reasonably common > for women to *run* the gay bars and meeting houses in Victorian > England. For example, see Martha Stacey's well-known house in > Wakefield Street, Bloomsbury, circa 1870. Going back further in time, > perhaps the best-known molly-house in all of pre-Victorian England was > the one run by Margarat Clap in Field Lane, Holborn, circa 1725. emacs-devel: whenever you need it, someone will be there to prove you wrong. -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-03 23:26 ` John Yates 2015-12-04 0:58 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-04 6:06 ` David Kastrup @ 2015-12-04 8:42 ` Eli Zaretskii 2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-12-04 8:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: John Yates; +Cc: drew.adams, emacs-devel > Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 18:26:16 -0500 > From: John Yates <john@yates-sheets.org> > Cc: Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org> > > You and I are old "grey beards". My point was that mentioning things that we - > as seasoned users of Emacs - like is quite a bit different from imagining the > website as a sales pitch to someone who has not used Emacs but _might_ - given > an appropriate message - be coaxed into trying it. If you accept such messaging > as the site's first goal then you have to try to put yourself in the mindset of > such a viewer. > > Your comments suggest that perhaps you do not buy into that being the first > goal. FWIW, I don't think there should be "the goal", in singular, for such a Web site. The stuff there should try to target diverse interests, and let everyone pick up what they are most interested in. Trying to target some virtual newbie, and pretend we know very well what will turn them on or off is bound to break at some point, IMO. For example, the GDB front-end might very well interest someone who needs to debug C/C++/Fortran code on GNU/Linux, where there's no alternative, at least not out of the box, that is better. I remember showing that UI (when it was still not the default one) to several developers that came from VS, and they never wanted anything else ever since. So mentioning it doesn't sound such a silly idea to me, after all. I believe the same could be true with other aspects. E.g., is it such a preposterous assumption that someone might be interested in coding in Lisp, instead of all the ad-hoc extension languages invented by other editors? In sum, it might be TRT to diversify a bit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
* Re: First draft of the Emacs website 2015-12-03 22:17 ` John Yates 2015-12-03 22:30 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-12-03 22:57 ` Drew Adams @ 2015-12-03 23:59 ` Clément Pit--Claudel 2 siblings, 0 replies; 89+ messages in thread From: Clément Pit--Claudel @ 2015-12-03 23:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1108 bytes --] Hi John, I'm not sure if you were answering Nicolas or me; my comments applied to the redesign, which I feel is a great step in making the website more welcoming. On 12/04/2015 12:26 AM, John Yates wrote: > My point was that mentioning things that we - as seasoned users of > Emacs - like is quite a bit different from imagining the website as a > sales pitch to someone who has not used Emacs but _might_ - given an > appropriate message - be coaxed into trying it. If you accept such > messaging as the site's first goal then you have to try to put > yourself in the mindset of such a viewer. Well, I only started using Emacs seriously a year and a half ago :) On 12/03/2015 11:17 PM, John Yates wrote: > * Newbies likely have a long, long road to travel before they will > ever consider discarding their current GUI / WYSIWYG / web-based > productivity tools for Emacs' text-only calendar, mail project > planning packages. And even seasoned users still use graphical tools sometimes, judging by the fact that you write to this list from GMail's web interface :) Clément. [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 836 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 89+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2015-12-16 17:56 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 89+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2015-11-28 23:29 First draft of the Emacs website Nicolas Petton 2015-11-28 23:51 ` Jean-Christophe Helary 2015-11-29 0:03 ` Daniel Pimentel 2015-11-29 1:02 ` Xue Fuqiao 2015-11-29 1:26 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-29 2:19 ` Alex Dunn 2015-11-29 3:31 ` Jean-Christophe Helary 2015-11-29 5:42 ` Random832 2015-11-29 8:15 ` David Caldwell 2015-11-29 14:25 ` Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-30 17:49 ` Emacs for Mac OS X bundle (was: First draft of the Emacs website) John Wiegley 2015-11-30 20:02 ` Emacs for Mac OS X bundle David Caldwell 2015-12-01 0:15 ` Xue Fuqiao 2015-12-01 1:40 ` David Caldwell 2015-11-30 0:02 ` First draft of the Emacs website Xue Fuqiao 2015-11-29 8:06 ` Przemysław Wojnowski 2015-11-29 10:27 ` Zack Piper 2015-11-29 12:36 ` Rasmus 2015-11-29 12:58 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-29 14:00 ` Marcin Borkowski 2015-11-29 10:15 ` David Engster 2015-11-29 12:56 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-29 15:17 ` Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-29 19:38 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-29 22:01 ` Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-29 22:11 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-29 16:21 ` Christopher Allan Webber 2015-11-29 19:39 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-29 21:45 ` Artur Malabarba 2015-11-29 22:11 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-30 0:04 ` Artur Malabarba 2015-11-30 1:29 ` Alex Dunn 2015-11-30 9:43 ` Artur Malabarba 2015-11-30 10:33 ` Dani Moncayo 2015-11-30 15:22 ` Drew Adams 2015-11-30 16:06 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-30 16:16 ` Yuri Khan 2015-11-30 16:23 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-12-01 14:37 ` Richard Stallman 2015-12-01 14:56 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-11-30 19:48 ` Milan Zamazal 2015-12-02 16:45 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-02 17:22 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-12-02 16:36 ` Random832 2015-12-02 17:12 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-12-02 18:07 ` Yuri Khan 2015-12-02 18:26 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-12-02 18:29 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-12-02 18:30 ` Yuri Khan 2015-12-02 23:47 ` Xue Fuqiao 2015-12-04 3:57 ` Random832 2015-12-04 5:17 ` License of the Emacs website (was: Re: First draft of the Emacs website) Chad Brown 2015-12-04 5:42 ` Random832 2015-12-05 0:19 ` First draft of the Emacs website Richard Stallman 2015-12-03 13:58 ` Clément Pit--Claudel 2015-12-03 22:17 ` John Yates 2015-12-03 22:30 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-12-03 22:57 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-03 23:26 ` John Yates 2015-12-04 0:58 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-08 13:05 ` Valentijn 2015-12-08 15:09 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-08 15:21 ` Spencer Boucher 2015-12-08 16:08 ` David Kastrup 2015-12-08 20:52 ` Marcin Borkowski 2015-12-08 21:51 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-08 21:58 ` Drew Adams 2015-12-09 21:00 ` Marcin Borkowski 2015-12-10 5:28 ` Richard Stallman 2015-12-10 9:10 ` David Kastrup 2015-12-10 5:27 ` Richard Stallman 2015-12-10 16:13 ` Python vs Lisp (followups to -tangents) Random832 2015-12-10 18:40 ` Sam Steingold 2015-12-10 22:31 ` Random832 2015-12-16 15:57 ` Sam Steingold 2015-12-16 16:32 ` Random832 2015-12-16 17:56 ` Christopher Allan Webber 2015-12-09 6:06 ` First draft of the Emacs website Richard Stallman 2015-12-04 6:06 ` David Kastrup 2015-12-04 9:37 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-12-04 9:42 ` David Kastrup 2015-12-04 10:11 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-12-04 10:42 ` Nicolas Petton 2015-12-04 10:44 ` David Kastrup 2015-12-04 11:03 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-12-04 22:26 ` Paul Eggert 2015-12-04 22:30 ` David Kastrup 2015-12-04 8:42 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-12-03 23:59 ` Clément Pit--Claudel
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