From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 23:48:59 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87r2i762es.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <83bm9n6f7d.fsf@gnu.org> <87tvneql3i.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83o9dl2oob.fsf@gnu.org> <87y3coopyf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <5261e02f-fd51-7e8d-fb6b-ad013ce2e748@lanl.gov> <87y3cnl7bt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <87y3cl2egd.fsf@fastmail.com> <87r2icey5n.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180902182358.huw3y6jhfr7x4zf2@Ergus> <87tvn5qoe3.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20180904205713.ouqux6wi3jqe6zcj@Ergus> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536196253 2435 195.159.176.226 (6 Sep 2018 01:10:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 01:10:53 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: Joshua Branson , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ergus Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 06 03:10:49 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fxioq-0000VF-8J for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2018 03:10:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58833 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxiqw-0000ZO-FB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2018 21:12:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45195) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxipd-0000Y7-RR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2018 21:11:39 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxipc-0001Sc-9A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2018 21:11:37 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5300::2]:25200) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxipb-0001Qb-U2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2018 21:11:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1536196294; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=9EB8oYTomuknzxcrw0jGuD48ubbUCLDuvUHNMcvgR5s=; b=We6V2Nhe6NjGKnRxvDmWqGb6ZvFDDOG/1o0DU3yW3QQnC3KYrAxrOzG9ixSC6y3nQ8 nLn2sLCedj0xFAJkfA2c8vkMuvNR2dEEv+BJHumdy9RcXO2C4gkEaxzsUN+UQhT7Axbl NvuJI3oI7tDzba5EEkIuYPsQkTq+1w4UykZ+sqULpuJzTXH8hTFh2EE1kJoOIMnyVK0k nunFVmRi7LE4RFt2DR1/jJRgE83Yh7iXLrDNdF2d5Hkkn0ZvH82gcm0p9GJk0vXYbEnU jg29QJwv27oucS/kq+1UXA4b5yIDex209HMG/JN0JmesIL/j8MKi8IRkQ8sg6B9jZBV1 Utwg== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.0 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e03b99u861BS65x (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Thu, 6 Sep 2018 03:11:28 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fxipT-00021a-LD; Thu, 06 Sep 2018 03:11:27 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20180904205713.ouqux6wi3jqe6zcj@Ergus> (Ergus's message of "Tue, 4 Sep 2018 22:57:13 +0200") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::2 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229322 Archived-At: Ergus writes: > On Tue, Sep 04, 2018 at 05:21:40PM +0200, hw wrote: > [...] >> >>But how else than modal would you edit? The difference between vim and >>Emacs is that Emacs` normal mode is vims insert mode, and Emacs can have >>a whole mode hiding behind every key you press rather than only one >>"command mode" which limits you to the keys you have available and to >>stringing them up. >> > I my brain at least a text editor should edit and insert a letter if I > press it, and extra things require extra commands. Hm, it doesn't really matter to me if insert or command mode is the default. > The real issue for me is that I can only use the terminal and many > keybinds are not available (C-backspace or S-C-backspace for > example). That's the reason I have considered to use evil mode > sometimes. Yeah, that's annoying. Maybe I should find some key bindings for things like this that work in terminals, too. >>After all, I'll stick with Emacs. Vim doesn't seem to have any real >>advantages for me, and there are some things I'd be missing. >> >>> It was a solution in a moment but and according to the vi creator "it >>> was for a world that doesn't exist anymore". >> >>That something is for a world that doesn't exist anymore can be said for >>a lot of things. That doesn't mean that what replaces it is any better, >>and indeed the replacements are usually much worse. >> > I agree, that's why we still use emacs :) (or vim). I like using Emacs, and there simply is nothing better than Emacs and vim. There don't need to be any replacements for them. > But I find the justification that vim users should move with hjkl (and > so on) because it is faster and better because the fingers don't > move... so senseless. Is just my feeling. It's true; the problem is that this idea breaks because there are too many occassions when you have to move with the cursor keys instead. That makes it difficult because you always need to decide which keys you can currently use to move, or you don't decide and always use the cursor keys. I use the cursor keys and Cltr-a and Ctrl-e and Ctrl-l, and that's how vim already doesn't have any advantages for me but even disadvantages. > But sometimes I understand them when I have to type C-a C-SPC C-e M-w to > select a line because xterm doesn't send C-backspace to emacs. Right: ;; my-mark-line (defun my-mark-this-line () (interactive) (beginning-of-line) (set-mark-command nil) (end-of-line)) (defun my-copy-this-line () (interactive) (my-mark-this-line) (kill-ring-save (mark) (point)) (message "copied current line")) (defun my-cut-this-line () (interactive) (my-mark-this-line) (kill-region (mark) (point)) (message "cut current line")) ;; ~/.emacs (load "~/emacs/my-mark-line") (global-set-key "\C-xl" 'my-mark-this-line) (global-set-key "\C-xc" 'my-copy-this-line) (global-set-key "\C-xw" 'my-cut-this-line) If someone needs license info: GPL v. 2 Is something like this really not already built in? If C-k is intended for this, it doesn't work out quite like that. >>> Again. It depends of your use cases. To edit simple files there is not >>> real difference, no advantage or disadvantage as editing is the basic >>> functionality. >> >>Well, that could be said for all editors. > > Exactly. Emacs is not just an editor, but as a simple editor even nano > is good enough (except for the undo lacking but our redo is not as good > as it can be without undo-tree, this is one of the default things I > would really like to change, the default undo behavior). Nano sucks when you want to search for something and when you want to save something. I don't like it. > [...] >>Why wouldn't people using Emacs not also use fvwm? I'd say particularly >>those using fvwm would be using Emacs, and the other way round. >> >>Besides, why would anyone use anything else than fvwm? >> > JA JA, I didn't even know that fvwm existed, I will give a try :p but I prefer tilling wm. Fvwm can do that, here are some hints: DestroyMenu MenuArrangeWindows AddToMenu MenuArrangeWindows + "Arrange Windows" Title + "" Nop + "&V-Tile 2" FvwmRearrange -tile -a -mn 2 -noraise 0 0 100 100 + "V-Tile 3" FvwmRearrange -tile -a -mn 3 -noraise 0 0 100 100 + "V-Tile 4" FvwmRearrange -tile -a -mn 4 -noraise 0 0 100 100 + "" Nop + "H-Tile 2" FvwmRearrange -tile -h -a -mn 2 -noraise 0 0 100 100 + "H-Tile 3" FvwmRearrange -tile -h -a -mn 3 -noraise 0 0 100 100 + "H-Tile 4" FvwmRearrange -tile -h -a -mn 4 -noraise 0 0 100 100 + "" Nop + "This &Half" Function HalfReplace + "This &Maximize" Function MaxReplace + "This &Quarter" Function QuarterReplace DestroyFunc HalfReplace AddToFunc HalfReplace + I Resize frame 50 100 + I PlaceAgain + I WarpToWindow 50 50 DestroyFunc MaxReplace AddToFunc MaxReplace + I Resize frame 100 100 + I Move 0 0 + I WarpToWindow 50 50 DestroyFunc QuarterReplace AddToFunc QuarterReplace + I Resize frame 50 50 + I PlaceAgain + I WarpToWindow 50 50 Style * MinOverlapPercentPlacement Style * FixedPPosition Style * !UsePPosition Style * EWMHIgnoreStackingOrderHints Style * EWMHIgnoreStrutHints Style * EWMHPlacementIgnoreWorkingArea Style * EWMHIgnoreStateHints Style * DecorateTransient Style * !UseTransientPPosition Style * FocusFollowsMouse Style * SnapAttraction 16 All ScreenAll Style * StickyIcon Style * IgnoreRestack It's not strictly tiling like i3 does, but for all intents and purposes, the outcome is the same, while I can just do whatever I want. It gives you best of both floating and tiling with great elegance, simplicty and ease. Now fvwm manages the windows for me rather than that I have to manage them. Put the window menu or the functions on key bindings, and it takes only a key or two to get the windows arranged the way you want. It takes a while to get the hang of configuring fvwm, and it is extremely worthwhile to learn it. You only need to learn it so far as to be able to configure it the way you want it. >>>>(Uh, we probably shouldn't discuss this there --- feel free to send me >>>>an email directly :) >>>> >>> Why not? >> >>This is a development mailing list, and I wouldn't want to start an >>editor war. >> > The editor war finished a long time ago and in spite nobody won then, > now Emacs is sadly loosing the postwar stage in my opinion. That's a long discussion to have. That doesn't mean a new one couldn't begin, or that it couldn't be continued. I never took part in it. If Emacs is really loosing, it's probably because of little things, like the tutorial Emacs has needing to become much more inviting and user friendly. What it does best is probably driving potential users away.