From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2018 15:02:51 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87r2i4p2f8.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <8736v6icgt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83tvnmb958.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83y3cu7t9j.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180827015422.lcq44zvsjffeau4j@Ergus> <83a7p76f5e.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8p9o6y.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83pnxx1foj.fsf@gnu.org> <87bm9d9zs9.fsf@russet.org.uk> <87efe75v02.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87sh2lu471.fsf@toy.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536422063 23133 195.159.176.226 (8 Sep 2018 15:54:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 15:54:23 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, spacibba@aol.com, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 08 17:54:19 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fyfYw-0005vL-Lf for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 17:54:18 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43413 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyfb2-0004uV-QU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 11:56:28 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:35956) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyfZ9-0003X9-Hi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 11:54:32 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyfZ8-00017s-19 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 11:54:31 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5300::3]:27916) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyfZ7-0000nu-MG; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 11:54:29 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1536422054; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=SOkAJ0RyW8wBUP7xdu4AadOMk33UMexdldWjRVEOZpE=; b=jUUnmQORCaNnAl+VNnP2Khsk16nC1xfa26nfbvCNTYMqK+c9w33DRZAhcoGHus1PAD 6cmmT+xKX222hWUSh/k2uoMdGbN4oSxurTDcOnQmWi2FJmU7N5BLRM8f/CKDr+ovCwL1 n+YlVmW4nHMnjuND9he4HuMXrb6jFyUpuhbl2GJkhq3rku4f4+4bWERnP7utsVLqpGVR TQW7uVlltPhDH8Ieh/9THDuFbjmtEUfBgD8CKeb41wX+kiKZhPbxiKiXTdmTTQr8tXDy JcZdC31YtFSnpPkFuQpOhtg+Zlnx2qWM9pfVLB6LOPxvMuGekWLIxtNr83j7gE3xhbPe H3hw== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.0 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e03b99u88FrJDgu (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Sat, 8 Sep 2018 17:53:19 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fyfXy-0001et-Kc; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 17:53:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Sat, 08 Sep 2018 01:13:45 -0400") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229496 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > [...] > > The arrow keys (that includes PgUp and PgDown and Home and End) in > > combination with C-a and C-e are better. That's all I use for moving > > around. > > I use sequences of cursor motion commands all the time. > [...] > This is the normal way to do cursor motion in Emacs. You can do it > any way you like, but we should encourage people to learn this way. I'm fine with encouraging people to learn these movement keys, but how do the available movement keys give beginners good reasons to use Emacs, and how do they make using it better for them? Beginners will probably consider "the normal way to do cursor motion in Emacs" as the most complicated and awkward way to do cursor motion anywhere. Since motion is important when using an editor, building such a wall against it seems particularly well suited to scare them off to other editors which appear to be easier to use. Tutorials which take this into account more strongly might be more encouraging to use Emacs in the first place, and then beginners might want to learn the special movement keys. The current tutorial is doing it the other way round, and aside from external sources, it is quite likely the first thing beginners will read about Emacs: The first thing they read is the thing that will scare them off the most. How are they going to understand that Emacs is not difficult to use at all? BTW, I still don't see how anyone could move around efficiently when it requires to press ESC. Does it require a special keyboard?