From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ihor Radchenko Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 15:54:28 +0800 Message-ID: <87r1q37ubv.fsf@localhost> References: <4a1188f8-9864-54c0-ae6f-5f32102d9757@gmx.com> <20201011073553.GA6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201011120840.GC2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201011125031.GC6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201012050418.GZ2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201012062916.GB2923@protected.rcdrun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5269"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Richard Stallman , emacs-devel To: Jean Louis , Thibaut Verron Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 12 09:57:28 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kRshz-0001Fp-K6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 09:57:27 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46102 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRshy-0004pQ-LW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 03:57:26 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44594) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRsgW-0003XW-VP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 03:55:56 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf1-x430.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::430]:37072) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRsgT-0003Xi-Oe; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 03:55:55 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf1-x430.google.com with SMTP id 144so12770634pfb.4; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 00:55:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version; bh=+QIbVhaNf1p4bdbRocLjjOMGi8cokVNEjmSi+LcLU4s=; b=poHuHZA1Ta+nYcJ/u7iD32X5GxMZ0kkjRj9A5QCeghL32GkqtJU+hcBHqqPGuMSDmQ 8po+rO76fNJ5gXx7G2/cN+iZiVmaxebjl0FGYPOpRvo5Ox0deta6OihcDHx7qw/oTXhL YLkSw2xv8/LsW4zBje1wfwO2nLj9x1PWkz2d4n8+/lnjeGGRVVhIwvhI7wfKx+rppQ49 uPAC4rENBtMyBaIvLjHp1ptmXHCgV+9LO8qxGVffQUB8Zgg847Cz5a7mUa1aqWC+G/o3 i/v+UqAeBY/oDvGKIiNHpqRffmr4kA92wkDN06lcwqa8Tn9nZ6BkdKZ/23naRz+5ckJY atQQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=+QIbVhaNf1p4bdbRocLjjOMGi8cokVNEjmSi+LcLU4s=; b=lwHPeDlAt84dyM0/DHNK+iJO/M7pDGQSLkLAPmrj3aCcIeK/CL1v4GwZ9uw0ImvYw7 B0C44mEG/0UrAJiUHWr1FDRteoJyyja+bS4M1UClYfu1E3FccifyIsSNLmHyMqxbqkJw 2OHQCBweMWATwCNG77g0UopIzN6+Zep0ziy6FV56EA+wIfmr1YmVSMtBBSnt3YS+aflR 8vSXsaNq+Dwjq+YysCprT2B+RjFDU0xKGtWsshN4JrmdYdUDoJ+MlR8DHig4ArQfd0M/ KifiLzrTVfJdBHa//Sxy41JAY+4y9A4ye5hCPo2OqB5TfWmijPGSWAx3COKTYYzGyVE3 qfsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530LP+F7iznx4v5wVG/UcSPE8SPSdtERSx7IpXIITAq1MLBdbNjT pxUza2wE42gf8M1Qwih367w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxeB++KwAQt35Glt47dER1bp6R/DHr+fjyIdKiW+i/aZlt0+ONAkouaowk+GwoHNsIiuXct3w== X-Received: by 2002:a63:f807:: with SMTP id n7mr12720016pgh.311.1602489351354; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 00:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost ([104.250.131.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e186sm19713883pfh.60.2020.10.12.00.55.49 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 12 Oct 2020 00:55:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20201012062916.GB2923@protected.rcdrun.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::430; envelope-from=yantar92@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x430.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257449 Archived-At: > Reason for that is that it is obvious that people do, people ARE using > MELPA and Marmalade software repositories; AND more important reason > not to ask is that information about usage of those repositories, > likes, number of contributors, it is already available on the > Microsoft Github "Insights" link on the MELPA page. There is no point > in asking users what is already obvious. There are stars or likes on > Github. I disagree that there is no point asking. Assuming that we are interested to know about MELPA/Marmalade usage, taking information about usage/stars/contributors/etc from third-party sources will represent different subset of Emacs users - it cannot be compared with other results of the presently discussed poll. All the MELPA/marmalade statistics is inherently biased. It only represents Emacs users using those repositories. On the other hand, asking about package repositories in this poll will provide us with a concrete estimate how popular are MELPA and Mermalade. In future, when nongnu ELPA is going to be up and running for a while, it may also be interesting to see how the popularity changes. Best, Ihor Jean Louis writes: > * Thibaut Verron [2020-10-12 08:34]: >> > > Just as a reminder, here is what the email starter suggested: >> > > >> > > > a survey for Emacs users to better grasp the diversity and various usages >> > > out there >> > > >> > > There is nothing about taking practical decisions or encouraging free >> > > software (or anything) there. >> > >> > Every opinion poll survey has a purpose, normally the purpose is to >> > find out what majority wish and want to improve the product or service >> > and thus reach or gain more customers, strike it, users. >> >> Yes it has a purpose, I quoted it above. To understand "the diversity >> and various usages out there". Specifically excluding some popular >> usages defeats that purpose. > > Tell me examples of popular usage that you refer to? > > Free form gives enough possibility for any user to explain anything > they wish. > >> If anything, wouldn't we want to get an idea how many Emacs users >> currently use a non-free package repository? > > I am not sure if there is any non-free package repository for > Emacs. > > MELPA is fetching most packages from the Microsoft Github, and Github > dictates free licenses for any public repository, most of them are > free software. For me is hard to find particular example that uses non > free software. > > That will be work to do, to move some public packages to non-GNU ELPA. > > MELPA recipes can be cloned, copy of software can be placed on > nongnu.org automatically, later revised from TODO to be TO PUBLISH, > and distributed ethically. > >> > They do provide free software naturally as packages should be GPL so >> > far I understand (not sure), but if they wrap non free software or >> > have pointers to non free software, such recommendation would be >> > contrary to principles why GNU Emacs have been made as free software. >> >> I don't understand why a question in a survey would be seen as a >> recommendation. > > Above paragraph refers to MELPA, that could wrap non free software in > the free software packages. I can then imagine links in packages pointing > to non free software, that is what was meant with recommendation. It > does not refer to questions in the opinion poll. > >> That's similar, in a sense, to those social surveys asking people if >> they have done drugs. I don't think those want to encourage people to >> take drugs. >> >> > > The same warning could be used when mentioning windows, non-free >> > > IDEs, etc. >> > >> > Warning you mention is used on Emacs download page, see >> > https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/download.html >> >> Great, so there is precedent ! Why is it acceptable and sufficient on >> the main download page but not acceptable in a survey? > > It is not a new precedent, it was from the creation of Emacs to talk > about free software, and advise people. In my opinion GNU project > should increase the marketing of free software philosophy by power of > 10, it is not enough. > >> Those words are a bit too harsh when applied to Melpa, I hope that >> we agree on that. And nobody likes to read propaganda (no matter how >> justified) in a survey, so having such a long tirade could again >> lead to selection bias. > > GNU project with promotion of free software is not biased as that > would mean that it is influenced in an unfair way. > > GNU project is influenced in a fair way and thus should be promoting > and supporting free software and helping users of proprietary software > to understand what is free software and freedom in computing. > > The word propaganda you maybe used in a negative connotation, but the > word itself means promoting information to spread some cause. Who is > not interested, would not read it. The point of propaganda that some > will get interested, so propaganda gives results for those who are. > >> But, for example, wouldn't something like below be both short and >> explicit enough? >> >> "- Melpa (Note: Emacs and the GNU project DO NOT ENDORSE package >> repositories which encourage non-free software, see >> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/)" > > I do not think that it is necessary for survey from GNU Emacs to ask > if people are using Melpa or whatever other software > repository. > > Reason for that is that it is obvious that people do, people ARE using > MELPA and Marmalade software repositories; AND more important reason > not to ask is that information about usage of those repositories, > likes, number of contributors, it is already available on the > Microsoft Github "Insights" link on the MELPA page. There is no point > in asking users what is already obvious. There are stars or likes on > Github. > > If there is certain disagreement between GNU and MELPA, that is valid > reason as well. > > In my opinion, the team of MELPA is preparing the list of packages > well, then GNU team working on ELPA on nongnu.org can fork all the > software and curate and remove whatever is unsafe or not ethical and > make a new repository.