From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philip Kaludercic Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Renaming eglot -- or at least add an alias? Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2022 11:06:37 +0000 Message-ID: <87r0zpb1z6.fsf@posteo.net> References: <83pmfdduix.fsf@gnu.org> <86sfk7hse3.fsf@gmail.com> <8735c6tq6t.fsf@posteo.net> <87r0zq2uea.fsf@posteo.net> <867d1hub5n.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6076"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Richard Stallman To: Tim Cross Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 03 13:12:59 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ofJNa-0001ND-Tu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2022 13:12:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60732 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ofJNZ-0000M7-Vw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2022 07:12:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50122) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ofJHY-00031c-Ss for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2022 07:06:44 -0400 Original-Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:47025) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ofJHU-0007CB-Rg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2022 07:06:43 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B52E724010A for ; Mon, 3 Oct 2022 13:06:38 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1664795198; bh=fa7L/WMMyQ2dEJCapALdyn7IuJLHrzf7C/SR0786KlI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:Date:From; b=fDlKZw4nIiAltPv2sogpQewqdrQD3UyNoFVIhvC7tTl5VOGhyVsHm4KDevecoRrr+ gG+69XIuzb5pOqBFLnyW8kYJxKFOrhZcN58M67gp+Web+z1F+XK2ciRiLkni0Vp+Eu +tdFQdfhfnsiMTPmWzYV/fg5KLPWoMviI5MFw7egufT7KLi1dbC75ASiRwZuC1qZ8B nP+vEv3cB98IrxNo/ztbT357NlDzLKm9zm/FoKB6bNkUcDWxsI27KL3FwwdRrm5n98 KKdT3EAVUl238a00lTae3L7DqEIB6L5TLy81GWfc1gGI26A5a2/SEgZi7iBk+ff5QH XOVFGwRYnFnhg== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4MgyhF5qCCz6tqs; Mon, 3 Oct 2022 13:06:37 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <867d1hub5n.fsf@gmail.com> (Tim Cross's message of "Mon, 03 Oct 2022 08:30:28 +1100") Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; prefer-encrypt=nopreference; keydata= mDMEYHHqUhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAp3GdmYJ6tm5McweY6dEvIYIiry+Oz9rU4MH6NHWK0Ee0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiQBBMWCAA4FiEEDM2H44ZoPt9Ms0eHtVrAHPRh1FwFAmBx6lICGwMFCwkIBwIGFQoJ CAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQtVrAHPRh1FyTkgEAjlbGPxFchvMbxzAES3r8QLuZgCxeAXunM9gh io0ePtUBALVhh9G6wIoZhl0gUCbQpoN/UJHI08Gm1qDob5zDxnIHuDgEYHHqUhIKKwYBBAGXVQEF AQEHQNcRB+MUimTMqoxxMMUERpOR+Q4b1KgncDZkhrO2ql1tAwEIB4h4BBgWCAAgFiEEDM2H44Zo Pt9Ms0eHtVrAHPRh1FwFAmBx6lICGwwACgkQtVrAHPRh1Fw1JwD/Qo7kvtib8jy7puyWrSv0MeTS g8qIxgoRWJE/KKdkCLEA/jb9b9/g8nnX+UcwHf/4VfKsjExlnND3FrBviXUW6NcB Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:296737 Archived-At: Tim Cross writes: >> Honestly, I think that commands like eglot-rename should either be >> aliased or wrapped by some other prefix-less command >> (e.g. "rename-symbol"). User options are more tricky, that is true. > > I doubt that would work well. The functionality 'rename symbol' is a > common term and one which many language modes also implement. Why would > eglot (or whatever it ends up being called) be able to 'own' that name? Because Elgot is being merged into the core? Also, as I say this doesn't have to be a direct alias. I can imagine an xref-like backend system where Elgot is just one of the implementations. >> A more radical idea, but that might be something for Emacs 30+ could be >> to just enable Elgot by default when everything necessary for using it >> is available. Then new users wouldn't have to bother with finding out >> what the right packages, user options, etc. are and could just use it >> OOTB. That would be assuming that anyone with an LSP server installed >> is actually interested in using it. >> > > I think this misses the main strength of Emacs. > > Emacs is largely about being able to craft the experience you want. It > isn't meant to be a clone of all other editors where everything comes > 'out of the box' based on what some other people believe is the right > setup. This is a cliche, and an inaccurate one on top of that. Emacs isn't a blank slate where you pick and choose everything. Many things are "forced" upon users: Why does Xref use TAGS-files by default? Why is font-locking enabled by default? Why is anything bound at all? Why are any packages even bundled with Emacs in the first place? What you say is a common impression because a lot of "modern" functionality is missing OOTB, like the stuff that Elgot provides. The reason why packages are bundled is because Emacs ought to be useful. Elgot does a good job at "super-charging" xref, imenu, capf, etc. so UI-wise nothing is changed, just improved. That being said, there are at least two points that should be considered before 29.1 is released: - The rebinding of `display-local-help'. I don't get why this is done. - The custom mode-line modification instead of eglot being just another minor mode item. > Besides, there is no such thing as 'a language server' - there > are different servers for different languages and it is quite likely > there will be multiple different language servers for a single language > (already the case with some languages like javascript). Ok, but that is already something that Elgot handles with `eglot-server-programs', right? > I also think this boat has sailed. We already have sufficient numbers of > packages which for whatever reason, don't have 'intuitive' names. In > fact, it is probably impossible to achieve such a thing given > differences in languages, cultures, technical backgrounds etc. We don't > even seem to be consistent here. We have been asked to come up with a > new name which is intuitive, but does not involve jargon or require > inherent technical knowledge. How is this going wiht respect to other > packages, for example, the very interesting tree-sitter? What is that > going to be called? The term tree-sitter is very jargon and technical > based. Anyone not familiar with lisp is unlikely to know what that is. Even if this might be the case (Lars indicated that it is so), I at least want to have made a serious effort at trying to find an alternative. > The point is, we already have to rely on package description and not > package name for meaning. This is unlikely to change. If someone was > able to suggest a good name, I'm sure it would be adopted, but nobody > has. Not sure about that, the main reason I think was that due to the approaching release of Emacs 29.1 we don't have the time to properly rename the package. Which is why I have just been asking for an alias. Some name where if someone asks me in person how to enable auto-completion, the next question isn't "How do I spell that?" or "What was that name again?". It seems to me that most people in support of "Eglot" as a name reject everything else because it isn't perfect or an exact description. As if there is only a hypothetical, ideal name and everything else is equally inadequate, whether "elgot", "eglot", "ide-mode", "foobarbaz" or "chair". > So gar, eglot seems to be as good as any other suggestion IMO, > especially at this 11th hour when hard working dedicated maintainers are > trying hard to get this package merged into emacs and release Eamcs > 29. I also suspect, given all the information and documentation out > there about eglot, changing branding now would just be detrimental to > both that package and Emacs. > > At the end of the day, I think the name given to a package should be up > to the developer(s) of that package. We can provide guidelines and > recommendations, but the final decision should rest with those who > actually do all the work. In general yes, when an important feature like this is being merged into the core, then I think it is absolutely reasonable to question something like this.