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From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net>
To: Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org>
Cc: Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: [POLL] Should we accept breaking changes to get rid of Org libraries that perform side effects when loading?
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2023 08:48:26 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87r0odrkbp.fsf@localhost> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87bkfip3mo.fsf@gnu.org>

Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

>> This is convincing.
>> I am then CCing Bastien, as, despite the Elisp convention, following it
>> will break https://bzg.fr/en/the-software-maintainers-pledge/
>
> FWIW, in this case, the mistake lies in breaking the Emacs Lisp coding
> convention first.  When the breaking change is a side-effect of fixing
> a bug, it is unavoidable.

The situation is a bit more complex.
Strictly speaking, loading Elisp library _always_ has side effects of
defining new functions. And, for example, Org babel's behavior is
modified when ob-foo.el is loaded because `fboundp' on
'org-babel-execute:foo returns non-nil.

A bit different approach is used for ol-foo.el, where more significant
side effect is triggered by top-level calls to
`org-link-set-parameters'. Similarly, ox-foo.el uses
`org-export-define-derived-backend' or `org-export-define-backend'.

Finally, we have org-mouse.el discussed here, which modifies key
bindings and org-inlinetask.el, which modifies how Org treats headlines
in Org files, modifying syntax.

With the current state of affairs, it is often enough to
(require 'org-library) to get things work. If we get rid of all the
possible side effects, users will have to adapt their configurations
and we will thus violate "I won't force you to update your
configuration."

Of course, we can change babel implementation to use explicit registry
like for export backends and force users to call explicit activation
commands in addition to (require 'library). But I am not sure if we are
not crossing the line with such an approach: "I won't use software
correctness as an excuse.".

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>


  reply	other threads:[~2023-08-08  8:48 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 112+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-03-21  3:36 org-ctags land grab Nick Dokos
2023-03-21 16:40 ` Rudolf Adamkovič
2023-03-22 12:03 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-03-23  5:14   ` Nick Dokos
2023-03-23 10:49     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-03-23 14:50       ` Max Nikulin
2023-03-25 17:45         ` [POLL] Should we accept breaking changes to get rid of Org libraries that perform side effects when loading? (was: org-ctags land grab) Ihor Radchenko
2023-03-27 15:14           ` [POLL] Should we accept breaking changes to get rid of Org libraries that perform side effects when loading? Max Nikulin
2023-03-28 10:02             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-03-27 16:10           ` [POLL] Should we accept breaking changes to get rid of Org libraries that perform side effects when loading? (was: org-ctags land grab) Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2023-03-28  9:55             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-08  4:19           ` [POLL] Should we accept breaking changes to get rid of Org libraries that perform side effects when loading? Bastien Guerry
2023-08-08  8:48             ` Ihor Radchenko [this message]
2023-08-08 13:29               ` Bastien Guerry
2023-08-09  7:48                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-08-10 19:50                   ` Nick Dokos
2023-08-11  7:36                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11  9:44                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12 12:46                   ` Bastien Guerry
2023-08-12 22:18                     ` Samuel Wales
2023-08-13  8:59                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-14  0:57                         ` Samuel Wales
2023-08-14 10:34                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-14 13:19                       ` Fraga, Eric
2023-08-22 15:15                         ` Bastien Guerry
2023-08-23  9:33                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 11:39                             ` Bastien Guerry
2023-08-24 11:44                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 12:08                                 ` Bastien Guerry
2023-08-24 12:15                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 12:36                                     ` Bastien Guerry
2023-08-24 12:40                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 12:48                                         ` Bastien Guerry
2023-08-24 12:56                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 13:01                                             ` Russell Adams
2023-08-24 13:33                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 13:41                                                 ` Russell Adams
2023-08-24 13:47                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 13:02                                             ` Bastien Guerry
2023-08-24 13:36                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 13:43                                                 ` Russell Adams
2023-08-25  9:16                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 14:08                                                 ` Bastien Guerry
2023-08-25  2:59                                                   ` spookygostee
2023-08-25  9:53                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-25  9:44                                                   ` [DISCUSSION] Re-design of inlinetasks (was: [POLL] Should we accept breaking changes to get rid of Org libraries that perform side effects when loading?) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-25 17:58                                                     ` [DISCUSSION] Re-design of inlinetasks Juan Manuel Macías
2023-08-26 10:58                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-26 11:42                                                         ` Juan Manuel Macías
2023-08-26 12:33                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-26 14:21                                                             ` Juan Manuel Macías
2023-08-26 16:33                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-26 17:31                                                                 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2023-08-26 17:43                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-26 19:19                                                                     ` Juan Manuel Macías
2023-08-27  9:21                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 17:25                                                                         ` Juan Manuel Macías
2023-08-31  9:15                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-26 18:01                                                                   ` Russell Adams
2023-08-29 13:00                                                                     ` Russell Adams
2023-08-30 11:49                                                                       ` Alain.Cochard
2023-08-30 12:36                                                                         ` Russell Adams
2023-08-30 14:06                                                                           ` Alain.Cochard
2023-08-30 14:31                                                                             ` Russell Adams
2023-08-30 14:39                                                                               ` Alain.Cochard
2023-08-30 15:08                                                                                 ` Russell Adams
2023-08-30 15:13                                                                                   ` Russell Adams
2023-08-30 18:32                                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 12:53                                         ` [POLL] Should we accept breaking changes to get rid of Org libraries that perform side effects when loading? Russell Adams
2023-08-24 13:04                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 13:11                                             ` Russell Adams
2023-08-24 13:41                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 13:49                                                 ` Russell Adams
2023-08-25  9:18                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 14:20                                                 ` Russell Adams
2023-08-24 13:23                                       ` tomas
2023-08-24 13:29                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 13:36                                           ` Russell Adams
2023-08-24 13:44                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 14:00                                               ` Russell Adams
2023-08-25  2:48                                                 ` spookygostee
2023-08-25  9:52                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 13:50                                           ` tomas
2023-08-25  9:49                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 12:11                                 ` Russell Adams
2023-08-24 12:21                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-24 14:43                                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-08-24 23:07                                       ` Samuel Wales
2023-08-24 23:23                                         ` Samuel Wales
2023-08-24 23:24                                           ` Samuel Wales
2023-08-25  9:56                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-25  9:56                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-26  8:59                             ` Fraga, Eric
2023-08-26 12:30                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 13:16                                 ` Fraga, Eric
2023-08-22 15:40                         ` Russell Adams
2023-08-13  8:53                     ` [DISCUSSION] The future of org-mouse.el and org-inlinetask.el (was: [POLL] Should we accept breaking changes to get rid of Org libraries that perform side effects when loading?) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13  9:33                       ` [DISCUSSION] The future of org-mouse.el and org-inlinetask.el Bastien Guerry
2023-08-13 10:29                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-14  7:48                     ` [POLL] Should we accept breaking changes to get rid of Org libraries that perform side effects when loading? Tom Gillespie
2023-08-15 14:10                     ` Timothy
2023-08-15 14:38                       ` Russell Adams
2023-08-15 15:21                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-15 18:58                           ` Tom Gillespie
2023-08-16 10:24                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-09 22:30               ` Or probably just fix the org-ctags hook functions? (was: Should we accept breaking changes ...) Jens Schmidt
2023-08-10 19:56                 ` Or probably just fix the org-ctags hook functions? Nick Dokos
2023-08-11  7:37                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 17:01                     ` Nick Dokos
2023-08-11 21:40                       ` Jens Schmidt
2023-08-11 21:48                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 22:43                           ` Jens Schmidt

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