From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philip Kaludercic Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: discoverability, better defaults and which-key in Emacs Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2024 07:11:52 +0000 Message-ID: <87r0hridvr.fsf@posteo.net> References: <874jetaxri.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <87le84oqbd.fsf@yahoo.com> <87plxdpsxw.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="39745"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Po Lu , Jeremy Bryant , justin@burkett.cc, Emacs Devel To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 05 08:12:50 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rWt9u-000A7h-G9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 05 Feb 2024 08:12:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rWt95-0003n0-7g; Mon, 05 Feb 2024 02:11:59 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rWt93-0003mV-NJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Feb 2024 02:11:57 -0500 Original-Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rWt91-0007J4-LM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Feb 2024 02:11:57 -0500 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CC17240029 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2024 08:11:53 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1707117113; bh=7lhe/pgtC4kE5C9Lc+qRqGo4XiRqLX6efwXHzOJ/WaI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:OpenPGP:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type:From; b=YfHlxXztD5+nBMxnOuhvYZEchm32ySFEr8CPZXnRcvxGK1xvir74+UeD9VtROliIX n6bOC5/F8lHooXZCvEElwoXZX0EqAo9MVEkbC7qPsrVJMxLWOklf5GkJ2oRwuNjBdK aE/xOxsPsn+df5hnWRMz1IpnsDLNHoDPuZmOeGirmz4CYrTtBr5W6Y5O01+PKfxdVQ XkP+nRif0KtcW4b5ia8uxkh2FGHINW6YpKdeqLK3pdq6hZG3Le4EbBVFB4/34gW7O2 hBDhVVv6v9viL/fcLOioL+ISGB1+nsFLmXvs3TZgfUsbv01k+0WctbTgs4VUduonDB ZclORpVbJC2wQ== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4TSyHD4wmkz9rxF; Mon, 5 Feb 2024 08:11:52 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Mon, 5 Feb 2024 00:03:35 +0200") Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; keydata= mDMEZBBQQhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAHJuofBrfqFh12uQu0Yi7mrl525F28eTmwUDflFNmdui0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwulikAEA77hloUiSrXgFkUVJhlKBpLCHUjA0 mWZ9j9w5d08+jVwBAK6c4iGP7j+/PhbkxaEKa4V3MzIl7zJkcNNjHCXmvFcEuDgEZBBQQhIKKwYB BAGXVQEFAQEHQI5NLiLRjZy3OfSt1dhCmFyn+fN/QKELUYQetiaoe+MMAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEE Dg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwukm+wEA8cml4JpK NeAu65rg+auKrPOP6TP/4YWRCTIvuYDm0joBALw98AMz7/qMHvSCeU/hw9PL6u6R2EScxtpKnWof z4oM OpenPGP: id=7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66; url="https://keys.openpgp.org/vks/v1/by-fingerprint/7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66"; preference=signencrypt Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:315882 Archived-At: Dmitry Gutov writes: > On 03/02/2024 15:40, Philip Kaludercic wrote: >> Po Lu writes: >> >>> Jeremy Bryant writes: >>> >>>> Here is a suggestion - include which-key in core and potentially enable >>>> by for new users. >>>> >>>> I understand it is in ELPA already. >>>> >>>> Author Justin has expressed openness to the idea in >>>> https://github.com/justbur/emacs-which-key/issues/355 >>> I don't think enabling it by default is all that desirable, since its >>> popups are far more intrusive than keystrokes are when echoed, but >>> moving it to core is a decent idea. >> I second this concern, it also promotes the inefficient practice of >> inspecting keymaps by waiting for the idle timer to be triggered. > > What if instead of having the help on a timer, the timer would add a > small hint in the echo about how to invoke help (i.e. press C-h)? I think that would be a significant improvement if it is to be enabled by default. I don't have an issue with the presentation (though the transient buffer is my preferred UX). > The interface for displaying help could be which-key (it seems to look > pretty enough), or just the current 'C-h' help, depending on the > settings. > > The result, though, is that everybody learns to press 'C-h' when they > want to explore what the current prefix map contains and not just wait > for the timer.