From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Adding a generic mathematical library Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 06:52:33 +0200 Message-ID: <87r0bn5otq.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <8734o9sdig.fsf@posteo.net> <87wmllqq66.fsf@posteo.net> <87plrdqnhc.fsf@posteo.net> <87le21qldj.fsf_-_@posteo.net> <87r0bssde4.fsf@web.de> <87frs8sb8p.fsf@web.de> <87zfqf8c8n.fsf@dataswamp.org> <86plrbf990.fsf@gnu.org> <87ttgn874b.fsf@dataswamp.org> <86le1zf4w8.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15157"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:NNRF31ykYid5JVBprg62a/dbwZE= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 21 07:28:55 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sVP7u-0003kB-Eh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 21 Jul 2024 07:28:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sVP7A-0003cz-UQ; Sun, 21 Jul 2024 01:28:09 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sVOYx-0006AL-1L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Jul 2024 00:52:47 -0400 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sVOYu-00016G-59 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Jul 2024 00:52:46 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sVOYr-0008Oq-Dy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Jul 2024 06:52:41 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 01:28:07 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:321853 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii wrote: >>> To have a math library on ELPA, the library should be >>> reasonably-comprehensive, use solid algorithms, and solve >>> problems that happen in real life frequently enough. >>> By contrast, my impression from looking at your library [...] >> >> Unbelievable, no one has suggested adding that file >> to ELPA. > > You said, and I quote: > >> Maybe we should have a math library in ELPA, then it will be >> less hesitation to just add stuff that is desired as we go >> along, not having to argue what relevance it has to Emacs >> per se as a piece of text editing software. > > I was not sure whether you were talking about the library > you posted, so I qualified myself, quote again: That's not a library or file prepared for ELPA as you well know, it is just a bunch of functions. I have several such files that I have written myself since Emacs don't have it. Time, permutations, negative subtraction, some stats, yada yada. >> If what you offer is to have a completely different >> library, then we need first to talk what will be in it and >> which algorithms it will implement. "Math functions" is >> a very broad term, so defining the scope for such a library >> is not a trivial job. > > Okay? (I didn't write that.) >>> is that it is an ad-hoc collection of functions that solve >>> problems you personally find useful, but their general >>> usefulness is IMO questionable >> >> Incorrect, most math functions in it are really basic so >> one would expect them to be present in one form of another. > > I disagree. My evidence is that the need for functions > presented in your library, if it exists, was not strong > enough, otherwise people would be asking for some of these > functions long ago. Math is not popular enough? We have Tetris in core Emacs and stuff in ELPA no one would ever know existed. But math - naah, people don't need it in the world's programmer's editor number one. No one told you they want it so they cannot have ever wanted it. Simple! Well, I have said it several times and now other people say it as well. Math is huge in tech and science and a lot of other fields as well were we want to be. It is also something a lot of programmers are passionate about. _And_ a lot of non-programmers do math! Old school engineers used to know two things: how to do math and how to draw drawings and schematics. That was the basic. And there are many more examples. >> Unbelievable comment. This is indeed the problem that >> happens, as has been said in this very thread: without >> libraries and common projects individual people solve their >> problems locally with no incremental gain from one person >> to another. So it won't be as good. And now you see an >> example of that, bringing it up as a reason we can't have >> a math library in ELPA? > > OK, so if you want to talk about adding a math library, > I point you back to my comment above: we should first > discuss its scope and design. Well, the people doing it, at least. The scope to begin with: everything easy and basic you expect to find in it. -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal