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* Re: terminal escapes in Info files?
@ 2003-10-28  1:26 Karl Berry
  2003-10-28 10:51 ` Alper Ersoy
  2003-10-29 19:02 ` Richard Stallman
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 245+ messages in thread
From: Karl Berry @ 2003-10-28  1:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: emacs-devel, rms, dirt

    > if we want to add font markup to info fmt, let's not use something as
    > ugly as terminal escape squences.  please design something clean!

Since Info is inherently limited to what can be displayed on a terminal,
it seems like ANSI escape sequences are as reasonable specification of
the capabilities as anything else?  Easy to implement, too.  Admittedly
the ESC [ blah blah sequences are ugly, though.

    How about using what Enriched-Text mode uses in Emacs?  See
    etc/enriched.doc in the Emacs distro.

That is indeed a lot cleaner (also quite a bit more verbose :).  Thanks
for mentioning it, I wasn't aware of it.

It seems using this would imply a new non-backward-compatible output
format, though, since every literal < needs to be escaped in enriched
format, and existing info readers don't know how to do that.

Using the ugly terminal escape sequences, on the other hand, is
backward-compatible because I'm sure that no real document has literal
terminal escape sequences (Texinfo hasn't had @ctrl for years ...).

Hmm.  As always, it seems there is no easy answer.

Thanks,
k

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 245+ messages in thread
* Re: Info enhancements
@ 2003-12-03 19:42 Karl Berry
  2003-12-03 19:58 ` Robert J. Chassell
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 245+ messages in thread
From: Karl Berry @ 2003-12-03 19:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: emacs-devel

    As far as I can see, a better format would have the line number before
    the description rather than after it, with the description indented 6

But then it would not follow the standard format for menus, i.e.,
<term>:<node name>.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 245+ messages in thread
* Re: Info enhancements
@ 2003-12-04 22:55 Karl Berry
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 245+ messages in thread
From: Karl Berry @ 2003-12-04 22:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: emacs-devel

My preference is either (a) maximal alignment:

    * histogram:                    Manipulating Vectors.   (line   78)
    * hms:                          Conversions.            (line   63)

Or my original proposal (b), with no attempt at any alignment:

    * histogram:                    Manipulating Vectors.  (line 78)
    * hms:                          Conversions.  (line 63)

I prefer the parenthetical forms to the "Line N" forms, with or without
period.


Ok, since you prefer alignment, and I guess I rather agree, it will be
nicer in the common case of relatively short node names, I will do (a)
for the next release, barring objections.

Thanks,
k

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 245+ messages in thread
* Re: Info enhancements
@ 2003-12-06 14:49 Karl Berry
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 245+ messages in thread
From: Karl Berry @ 2003-12-06 14:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: bob, teirllm, emacs-devel

    What do you think about writing a variable name in a third argument

No.  The third arg to xref is for the printed manual.

All the existing args to xref have a meaning (obviously).  It doesn't
make sense to replace one of them willy-nilly with index entries.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 245+ messages in thread
* Re: Info enhancements
@ 2003-12-06 19:36 Karl Berry
  2003-12-06 19:53 ` Luc Teirlinck
  2003-12-06 20:30 ` Luc Teirlinck
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 245+ messages in thread
From: Karl Berry @ 2003-12-06 19:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: juri, eliz, emacs-devel

    Right now, we are trying to deal with an apparent problem that the
    Elisp info reader has with similarly named references

Exactly what is the bug and what is the proposed solution?  Sample files?

I had no idea there was an actual patch being applied.
What other changes are being made?  While savannah is down, it's
impossible to know what is being done.

As we know, the standalone Info reader searches for the second arg to
xref in the node.  This is not perfect, as you yourself noted, but I
guess it only hurts occasionally.  So if you want to implement that in
the Emacs reader, fine.  Consistency is nice, anyway.

Other than that, the only practical solution to subnode positioning is
anchors, as far as I can see.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 245+ messages in thread
* Re: Info enhancements
@ 2003-12-07  0:53 Karl Berry
  2003-12-07  5:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 245+ messages in thread
From: Karl Berry @ 2003-12-07  0:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: juri, eliz, emacs-devel

Luc, thank you for the clear mail with examples.

    @xref{(elisp)Top}. @xref{(elisp)Top, Top}.

Hmm.  The documentation is not explicit about any assigned meaning for the
second arg to an xref, beyond being the "name of the Info reference",
which is to say, the thing before the first colon.
http://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo/html_node/Two-Arguments.html
(and preceding and following nodes).

I had always thought of it as an arbitrary string.

    the reference produced by `@xref{(elisp)Top, Top}.' leads to
    (experiment)Top in Emacs Info.  Is this a bug?

My opinion is yes, it is a bug.  This very example shows it is a
reasonable thing to do -- have references to Top nodes of different
manuals within one node.  In fact, I myself have written nodes that do that.

Thanks,
k

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 245+ messages in thread
* Re: Info enhancements
@ 2003-12-07  0:56 Karl Berry
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 245+ messages in thread
From: Karl Berry @ 2003-12-07  0:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: juri, eliz, emacs-devel

    *on a completely unrelated note*, the
    strange place the stand-alone info goes to, once again seems to say:
    do not try to guess positions if you are not completely sure.
    @end unrelated

It is a judgement call.  In the case you cited, it goes to the wrong
position.  In most cases, Eli tells me, "amazingly" it goes to the right
place.

If I had written the code (Brian Fox did, it's been part of standalone
Info since early days), I probably would not have done this magic
searching, since, as we all know by now, it is a band-aid on the real
problem of subnode positioning.

If Emacs Info and standalone Info differ in this regard, I think that's
ok.  I'm not sure if I want to remove the code from sa-Info, since it's
been there so long.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 245+ messages in thread
* Re: Info enhancements
@ 2003-12-07  0:59 Karl Berry
  2003-12-07  5:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 245+ messages in thread
From: Karl Berry @ 2003-12-07  0:59 UTC (permalink / raw)


Responding now to Juri's original email, which I did not see before.
(Thanks for forwarding, Luc.)

All the changes look fine to me, except for the one we've been discussing:
    - - use reference names to move point to the place within the current
      node where reference name is defined.  


My only other comment is that the spate of changes around
Info-hide-note-references makes me question whether that is truly a
desirable new feature or not.  It seems like it has potential to cause
endless trouble for relatively little gain.  I hope at least that
Info-hide-note-references=t will not be the default for its first release.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 245+ messages in thread
* Re: Info enhancements
@ 2003-12-07  1:20 Karl Berry
  2003-12-07  5:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 245+ messages in thread
From: Karl Berry @ 2003-12-07  1:20 UTC (permalink / raw)


Responding now to Luc's mail about @anchor in general.

    If anchors are actually preferred over node names, 

I would not say that anchors are "preferred" over names.  Ultimately,
there is a bias in Texinfo toward reasonably short nodes.  When the
nodes are short, subnode positioning does not matter.  Thus, @anchor was
not available in Texinfo for many years -- and thus was not used in most
existing manuals, which predate the feature.

On the other hand, anchors are there to be used, there's no reason to
hesitate about it at this point.

    Or one might give some guidelines on _when_ to use @anchor.

I agree.  From this discussion, the answer forming in my mind is "when
you have a long node, and want to go to an exact location within it".

And I would also say "consider splitting such a long node into several
subnodes" -- but I realize there are cases where that is not desirable.

    A reference would lead in a random way either to the top of the node
    or to the "correct place".

If there were more anchors, users would simply get to the "correct"
place more often.  That's all to the good.

You're right that naming conventions could distinguish, but I'm not sure
that's completely the way to go either.  An xref label like
"file-coding-system-alist" seems perfectly reasonable to me; it is
not apparent whether it is a node or an anchor, but as long as the user
ends up at the description of file-coding-system-alist when they follow
a reference, I don't think it matters.

A couple of sentences in Help-Xref couldn't hurt.

Thanks,
k

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 245+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2004-09-02 19:02 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 245+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2003-10-28  1:26 terminal escapes in Info files? Karl Berry
2003-10-28 10:51 ` Alper Ersoy
2003-10-28 13:48   ` Oliver Scholz
2003-10-30 10:42     ` Alper Ersoy
2003-11-10 13:01       ` HTML as info format (was: terminal escapes in Info files?) Oliver Scholz
2003-11-17 13:29         ` HTML as info format Juri Linkov
2003-11-18  7:01           ` Richard Stallman
2003-11-18 14:54             ` Changes to Texinfo DTD [Was: Re: HTML as info format] Robert J. Chassell
2003-11-18 15:59               ` Changes to Texinfo DTD Oliver Scholz
2003-11-18 21:03                 ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-11-18 21:18                   ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-19 12:38                     ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-11-19 13:18                       ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-20 10:37                   ` Oliver Scholz
2003-11-20 16:55                     ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-11-20 18:19                       ` Oliver Scholz
2003-11-20 20:32                         ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-20 22:05                           ` Oliver Scholz
2003-11-20 22:51                             ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-21  2:13                             ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-11-21  8:49                               ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-21  2:10                           ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-11-21  7:57                             ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-24  7:57                               ` Juri Linkov
2003-11-24  9:32                                 ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-22 21:19                           ` Richard Stallman
2003-11-22 21:41                             ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-22 21:42                               ` Miles Bader
2003-11-22 21:56                                 ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-24  7:55                                   ` Juri Linkov
2003-11-24  9:25                                     ` Why XSLT in Emacs Lisp? (was Re: Changes to Texinfo DTD) Nic Ferrier
2003-11-24 13:04                                       ` Why XSLT in Emacs Lisp? Alex Schroeder
2003-11-23 17:14                                 ` Changes to Texinfo DTD Robert J. Chassell
2003-11-24  7:54                                 ` Juri Linkov
2003-11-24 16:19                                   ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-11-24 22:32                                     ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-11-24 22:31                                       ` Miles Bader
2003-11-25  5:22                                     ` Juri Linkov
2003-11-25 16:48                                       ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-11-25 21:59                                         ` Juri Linkov
2003-11-25 23:32                                           ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-11-25 19:54                                       ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-11-25 21:48                                         ` Juri Linkov
2003-11-26  1:08                                           ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-02  6:42                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-03  1:47                                       ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-03 16:18                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-04  2:53                                           ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-04  7:58                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-04  2:54                                           ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-04  8:04                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-04  9:39                                               ` Oliver Scholz
2003-12-04 11:48                                                 ` Oliver Scholz
2003-12-04 15:35                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-04  8:19                                             ` Oliver Scholz
2003-12-04 13:49                                             ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-12-05  0:11                                             ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-05  9:49                                               ` Kim F. Storm
2003-12-06 16:11                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2003-12-06 17:11                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-09 16:47                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2003-12-10  7:25                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-04  3:35                                           ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-04  8:12                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-11-22 23:59                               ` Stefan Monnier
2003-11-23  0:05                                 ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-23 14:16                                   ` Oliver Scholz
2003-11-23 15:11                                     ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-24 16:22                               ` Richard Stallman
2003-11-20 18:24                       ` Karl Eichwalder
2003-11-24 16:23                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-02  7:08           ` HTML as info format Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-01 10:38             ` Info enhancements Juri Linkov
2003-12-02  3:34               ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-02 10:54                 ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-02  4:43               ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-02 10:18               ` Info enhancements (was: Re: HTML as info format) Juri Linkov
2003-12-02 17:27                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-02 19:26                   ` Karl Berry
2003-12-03  5:38                     ` Info enhancements Juri Linkov
2003-12-03 13:27                       ` Karl Berry
2003-12-03 15:46                         ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-12-20  5:34                         ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-20 14:57                           ` Karl Berry
2003-12-03 17:16                     ` Info enhancements (was: Re: HTML as info format) Richard Stallman
2003-12-02 21:22               ` Info enhancements Reiner Steib
2003-12-03  3:54                 ` `s' (regex) search [was Re: Info enhancements] Harry Putnam
2003-12-03  5:47                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-03  9:42                     ` Harry Putnam
2003-12-03 11:31                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-03 11:56                         ` Harry Putnam
2003-12-03 16:27                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-03 19:13                             ` Harry Putnam
2003-12-04  8:34                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-03  5:04                 ` Info enhancements Juri Linkov
2004-09-01 16:42                   ` Reiner Steib
2004-09-01 20:55                     ` Juri Linkov
2004-09-02 19:02                       ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-03  0:33               ` Kim F. Storm
2003-12-03  6:43                 ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-12  2:08               ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-12 14:24                 ` Karl Berry
2003-12-12 17:14                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-12 19:23                     ` Stefan Monnier
2003-12-13 10:12                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-13 23:15                         ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-12 21:38                   ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-13 15:17                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-16  2:14                       ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-17  3:28                         ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-18  3:03                           ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-18 16:59                             ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-19 14:03                             ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-20  5:27                               ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-13 15:48                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-15  2:35                 ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-15  6:01                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-15 20:06                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-16  3:00                     ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-16 12:12                       ` Kim F. Storm
2003-12-17  3:28                         ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-17  3:28                       ` Richard Stallman
2004-07-01 21:07               ` non-blocking socket io: data limit on read? Nic Ferrier
2003-10-28 16:19   ` terminal escapes in Info files? Stefan Monnier
2003-10-29 19:02     ` Richard Stallman
2003-10-29 19:47       ` David Kastrup
2003-10-29 21:43         ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-10-29 22:39           ` David Kastrup
2003-10-30  6:03             ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-10-30 18:00         ` Richard Stallman
2003-10-29 19:01   ` Richard Stallman
2003-10-29 19:45     ` Alper Ersoy
2003-10-29 19:42       ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-10-30 18:00       ` Richard Stallman
2003-10-29 19:02 ` Richard Stallman
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2003-12-03 19:42 Info enhancements Karl Berry
2003-12-03 19:58 ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-12-04  7:07   ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-04 13:12     ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-12-04 15:29       ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-04 16:44       ` Karl Berry
2003-12-04 20:13         ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-12-06 21:01           ` Kai Grossjohann
2003-12-07  5:41             ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-07 14:49               ` Kai Grossjohann
2003-12-07 15:25                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-07 16:42                   ` Kai Grossjohann
2003-12-07 18:35                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-08 19:28                       ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-08 19:43                         ` Stefan Monnier
2003-12-05 14:09         ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-05 14:26           ` Karl Berry
2003-12-05 15:57             ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-05 17:44               ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-06  0:15                 ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-06  9:46                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-05 18:02               ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-05 22:33                 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-05 22:36                   ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-05 23:52                   ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-06  9:43                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-06 16:45                       ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-06 17:15                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-06 18:25                           ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-07 17:19                             ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-06 17:50                         ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-07  0:23                       ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-07  2:19                     ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-07  2:31                       ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-07 17:31                         ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-07 17:44                           ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-07 18:00                           ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-07 18:32                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-07 18:57                             ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-07 19:27                               ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-08  6:48                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-08  6:45                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-08  9:51                                 ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-09  3:34                                 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-09 10:06                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-10  2:56                                     ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-10  8:06                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-10  3:03                                     ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-06  0:27                 ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-07 17:19                   ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-07 21:21                     ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-08  6:58                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-08 10:12                         ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-08 10:29                           ` Miles Bader
2003-12-08 10:46                             ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-08 11:40                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-08 14:09                                 ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-09 11:53                                   ` Kim F. Storm
2003-12-08 17:05                                 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-09 10:08                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-08 10:35                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-05 18:27           ` Karl Berry
2003-12-05 20:44             ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-05 21:00               ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-06  9:11               ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-07 17:59               ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-06  1:27             ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-06  9:38               ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-07 15:43                 ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-06 14:49               ` Karl Berry
2003-12-06 15:31                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-06 21:40                 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-06 22:38                   ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-07  5:45                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-07 20:00                 ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-08  6:56                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-09 21:48                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-07 17:19               ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-07 18:44                 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-07 19:00                   ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-07 21:54                   ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-07 22:01                     ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-09 21:49                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-08 19:28                   ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-10  3:29                     ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-10 15:48                       ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-08  5:46                 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-08 17:34                   ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-09 21:48                   ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-04 15:50     ` Stefan Monnier
2003-12-05  0:11     ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-04 22:55 Karl Berry
2003-12-06 14:49 Karl Berry
2003-12-06 19:36 Karl Berry
2003-12-06 19:53 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-06 20:38   ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-06 20:30 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-07  0:53 Karl Berry
2003-12-07  5:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-07  0:56 Karl Berry
2003-12-07  0:59 Karl Berry
2003-12-07  5:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-07 13:42   ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-08  0:01     ` Kim F. Storm
2003-12-08 10:28       ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-09 21:48         ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-10  7:37           ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-11 14:45             ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-07  1:20 Karl Berry
2003-12-07  5:50 ` Eli Zaretskii

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