From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Johannes Weiner Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Why @#! is not Emacs using the Recycle bin on w32? Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 17:06:52 +0200 Message-ID: <87prnqo837.fsf@skyscraper.fehenstaub.lan> References: <48B7288E.3040503@gmail.com> <87wshzpszz.fsf@skyscraper.fehenstaub.lan> <48B85518.3000208@gmail.com> <87d4jqq33q.fsf@skyscraper.fehenstaub.lan> <48B94038.5070501@gmail.com> <87tzd2ocpw.fsf@skyscraper.fehenstaub.lan> <48B95210.5070704@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1220108840 26300 80.91.229.12 (30 Aug 2008 15:07:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 15:07:20 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs Devel To: "Lennart Borgman \(gmail\)" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 30 17:08:14 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KZS3g-00089j-SP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 30 Aug 2008 17:08:13 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45776 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KZS2i-0008Nw-2g for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 30 Aug 2008 11:07:12 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KZS2e-0008Lj-5p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Aug 2008 11:07:08 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KZS2d-0008JK-23 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Aug 2008 11:07:07 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=45366 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KZS2c-0008Im-SH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Aug 2008 11:07:06 -0400 Original-Received: from saeurebad.de ([85.214.36.134]:56678) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KZS2c-0007xW-8h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Aug 2008 11:07:06 -0400 Original-Received: by saeurebad.de (Postfix, from userid 107) id 3C9CB4A000A; Sat, 30 Aug 2008 17:07:05 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (217-68-166-87.dynamic.primacom.net [217.68.166.87]) by saeurebad.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36D24A0008; Sat, 30 Aug 2008 17:07:03 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <48B95210.5070704@gmail.com> (Lennart Borgman's message of "Sat, 30 Aug 2008 15:58:40 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.1.3 X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:103269 Archived-At: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" writes: >>>> Why do you expect it from the UI in the first place? >>> Thomas Lord took some time to explain what user interface (scientific >>> and non-scientific) research had found in this area. >>> >>> I simply think it is good trying to use the result from that research. >>> (Or invalidate it, but I think that takes much, much time to try. And I >>> do not expect it to succeed.) >> >> I already invalidated them for myself and I am sure there are others who >> like terminal deletion. > > Maybe that does not really invalidate the statistical results of the > more scientific research ... - but of course if many think the same > ... ;-) Statistics always include outliers. While stats draw conclusions about broader masses, they are bad when it comes to making statements about individuals. >> My only wish is that whatever fix will result from this thread is >> nothing that changes the default behaviour for the main bulk of dired >> users that are used to it and can cope. > > That is fair though I personally want it the other way round. Those who > can cope should cope (if I may stretch your words a bit). > >> My main question, though, was why you expected the trash can thing from >> an interface that obviously has its roots in *nix cli programs. > > I am not sure. Maybe because I was upset. Or maybe because I expect and > hope things to evolve ;-) I might sound a bit conservative on these issues but in fact I have tried and failed working with interfaces that are `as proven by research' the most ergonomic ones. And while certain tools are niche products, they still have a vivid community like tiling window managers, text shells (have a look at the zsh developer mailing list, THAT is innovation) and programmatically combinable text-based utils. I see that the main bulk of people using computers is more and more getting away from understanding the tools they use and the tools accomodate to that to become more and more simple to use intuitively and with more mechanisms that protect ignorant users from their own actions. But in this process they lose power. I noticed that when I watched a friend of mine resizing images one by one, for hours. Sure, he didn't have to learn much because the program was intuitive. But I read into the manpage for a text-based util that does the same job for 10 minutes and did his resizing work that would have taken _hours_ in literally _minutes_. Still, every average Windows user would tell me that resizing images with Photoshop is a more modern way than using ImageMagick. Even if it's inefficient to ludicrous dimensions. If people want `modern' interfaces that are accepted by broad masses then there is enough supply of tools that does that for them. Just because the average desktop environment has `evolved' into something that even untrained people can use does not mean that it is technically better and more usable. It might be instantly usable but not much else. And if you call it evolving to accomodate for untrained users while punishing those who know their tools, then, yes, I really hope Emacs does not evolve much. Seriously, Emacs is one of the rare tools that can still be used efficiently and without annoyance and I use it for exact that reason. I don't need a mouse for it, it does not have stupid popups and when I ask it to delete a file it deletes it instead of moving it. I like Emacs because it is NOT like all the others, because it has NOT broken heuristics that get in my way in really annoying ways. Again, *nix-like interfaces might not have so many users as other interfaces have but there *is* demand for it and if you don't like it, adjust the tool or use a different one. And in Emacs, you have all the power to hack something up that does the trash-can disposal of files. But please don't change the default behaviour that integrates really well with the overall philosophy. >From my experience with the GNU coreutils I expect Emacs to delete a file when I ask it to delete a file. Hannes