From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Miles Bader Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: C-d deleting region considered harmful Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:03:37 +0900 Message-ID: <87pqw752mu.fsf@catnip.gol.com> References: <87eicrx1ls.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <4C94E03D.8090002@gmail.com> <87fwx699pc.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <83tylmyclx.fsf@gnu.org> <4C961787.3090907@gmail.com> <878w2xsigj.fsf@gmail.com> <87zkvd5hwa.fsf@catnip.gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1285031043 28484 80.91.229.12 (21 Sep 2010 01:04:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 01:04:03 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 21 03:04:02 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OxrH6-0003ZW-Gj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 03:04:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50061 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OxrH5-0004lS-U9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:03:59 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=48455 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OxrGx-0004lI-Cc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:03:52 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OxrGv-0004hV-9W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:03:50 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:38771) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OxrGu-0004hL-UP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:03:49 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OxrGs-0003U0-94 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 03:03:46 +0200 Original-Received: from 218.231.154.125.eo.eaccess.ne.jp ([218.231.154.125]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 03:03:46 +0200 Original-Received: from miles by 218.231.154.125.eo.eaccess.ne.jp with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 03:03:46 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 50 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 218.231.154.125.eo.eaccess.ne.jp System-Type: x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu Cancel-Lock: sha1:i/Yc0peTUcw+Hc+nxibQ1Ww8xTQ= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:130554 Archived-At: Chad Brown writes: >> Not a good idea, I think, since one of the primary uses of C-x C-x >> is to re-activate the region! [for me about 90% of the time I >> think...] > > Not to point the ``you're wrong!'' finger, but I suspect that this > is not the primary use of C-xC-x for *most* people, but instead is > the use for a narrow selection of people who learned to appreciate > using the active region with the keyboard before > mouse/shift-selection was really common. It's true, that my claim is "just my claim" -- but on the other hand so is yours (it doesn't seem any more logically consistent). I think actual data is necessary to actually determine which is really more widespread. > I suspect that the people (like me, admittedly) who started to > really learn emacs before transient regions had already internalized > C-xC-x as `hop between two spots', and the newer people who are used > to graphical feedback flourishes like a highlighted active region > are used to setting the mark explicitly, or using either the mouse > or shift-selection. Remember, C-x C-x _reactivates_ the region, it's not a "set the region command", and indeed, my most common use seems to be using it after some typing goof accidentally causes my (laboriously selected) region to get deactivated for some reason. For the record, I'm definitely in your generation -- I first started using Emacs regularly in 1983. So while I like tmm a lot, I'm of the "keyboard generation." I learned the "new usage" of C-x C-x pretty quickly, and I don't see any obvious reason to believe that others long-time users are any different (many long-time users of course, hate tmm generally, but they probably just turn it off, and so really don't have a dog in this race). > I suggest adding a flag to invert the default meaning of ARG in > exchange-point-and-mark, at least as an experiment. I suspect that > the new behavior would be more in line with expected behavior for most > people, but it'd be hard to determine, and it seems reasonable to > default to the existing behavior in such a situation. Er, how about a bit more basis than "I suspect" first... -Miles -- Abstainer, n. A weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure. A total abstainer is one who abstains from everything but abstention, and especially from inactivity in the affairs of others.