[OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Marcelo de Moraes Serpa]

Hey list,

I started using emacs 5 years ago, and eventually jumped back from it
to Eclipse (at that time I was doing Flash and PHP), and started to
dig into *nix, and emacs called my attention.

The initial inertia was huge, as anyone who has gone through the emacs
learning curve might now. However, I quickly fell in love with it,
beacause of its "simplicity" compared to to Eclipse.

Now here I am, I still use emacs, but now only for writting and PIM
stuff. I prefer emacs for keeping a diary or a reference file and to
do GTD. As Carnsten once put it, emacs is an awesome development
platform, and one that is very portable.

However, I've got hooked. Vim (in my case, MacVim) has conquered my
hands. I know I'm risking myself a lot by saying it on an
emacs-related mailing list, but the Vim navigation and the vim model
in general is much more efficient for editing text.

(Btw, that's what led me into Viper and Vimpulse on emacs, I'm
currently using them with org)

So, how many of you here also use Vim? :)

Regards,

Marcelo.

Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Michael Brand]

Hi Marcelo

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 07:09, Marcelo de Moraes Serpa
<celoserpa@gmail.com> wrote:
> So, how many of you here also use Vim? :)

I also started with Emacs and later got hooked by the modal user
interface of vi for editing. Now I use vi/Vim for simple editing tasks
like config files while in a shell or on a machine where Emacs is not
available and Emacs with viper-mode for all other tasks, also as my
only IDE for developing C in large projects.

Michael

Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Detlef Steuer]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2011 07:48:36 +0100
Michael Brand <michael.ch.brand@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Marcelo
> 
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 07:09, Marcelo de Moraes Serpa
> <celoserpa@gmail.com> wrote:
> > So, how many of you here also use Vim? :)
> 
> I also started with Emacs and later got hooked by the modal user
> interface of vi for editing. Now I use vi/Vim for simple editing tasks
> like config files while in a shell or on a machine where Emacs is not
> available and Emacs with viper-mode for all other tasks, also as my
> only IDE for developing C in large projects.


I would be interested to hear about difficulties you face when using
org-mode together with viper. Or aren't there any?

detlef


> 
> Michael
> 
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> 

Re: Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Michael Brand]

Hi Detlef

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 08:32, Detlef Steuer <detlef.steuer@gmx.de> wrote:
> I would be interested to hear about difficulties you face when using
> org-mode together with viper. Or aren't there any?

If not programming I use Org together with viper almost all the time
when in Emacs and I know only of two small difficulties:

1) With the wrong configuration when using Mac OS X Cocoa Emacs or
Aquamacs there can be slowness in vi/viper insert mode. In a Linux GNU
Emacs 23.2.1 I can not observe such slowness. For a workaround and
more see
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/35916

2) Often in a Org table the vi/viper change commands like `ce' do not
replace but insert. I use workarounds like `dei'. In other places than
Org table this issue never happened to me.

I can recommend viper very much with Org and also generally in Emacs
to have the best of both worlds of vi/Vim and Emacs together in one
place. Just for fun I imagine it being a vi with one mode additional
as an extension to the native vi modes like command mode, insert mode,
replace mode: the "Emacs mode". viper shows the letter V, I, R or E
for these four viper modes in the Emacs mode line.

Michael

Re: Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Filippo A. Salustri]

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Not that I want to (or even could) undermine the justifiable popularity of
emacs,
but there is a ongoing effort to port org to vim: vimorganizer 9
http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=3342)
Cheers.
Fil

On 13 January 2011 03:34, Michael Brand <michael.ch.brand@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Detlef
>
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 08:32, Detlef Steuer <detlef.steuer@gmx.de> wrote:
> > I would be interested to hear about difficulties you face when using
> > org-mode together with viper. Or aren't there any?
>
> If not programming I use Org together with viper almost all the time
> when in Emacs and I know only of two small difficulties:
>
> 1) With the wrong configuration when using Mac OS X Cocoa Emacs or
> Aquamacs there can be slowness in vi/viper insert mode. In a Linux GNU
> Emacs 23.2.1 I can not observe such slowness. For a workaround and
> more see
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/35916
>
> 2) Often in a Org table the vi/viper change commands like `ce' do not
> replace but insert. I use workarounds like `dei'. In other places than
> Org table this issue never happened to me.
>
> I can recommend viper very much with Org and also generally in Emacs
> to have the best of both worlds of vi/Vim and Emacs together in one
> place. Just for fun I imagine it being a vi with one mode additional
> as an extension to the native vi modes like command mode, insert mode,
> replace mode: the "Emacs mode". viper shows the letter V, I, R or E
> for these four viper modes in the Emacs mode line.
>
> Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>



-- 
Filippo A. Salustri, Ph.D., P.Eng.
Mechanical and Industrial Engineering
Ryerson University
350 Victoria St, Toronto, ON
M5B 2K3, Canada
Tel: 416/979-5000 ext 7749
Fax: 416/979-5265
Email: salustri@ryerson.ca
http://deseng.ryerson.ca/~fil/

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Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Andrew J. Korty]

I've tried several times to use Viper, but I always give up.  The 
usual showstopper is read-only Emacs modes with single-character key 
bindings, like MH-E.  The d key deletes a message in an MH folder, but 
in vi, d deletes text to a target.  So the obvious thing to do is turn 
Viper mode off in folder buffers.  But I'd like to use the vi keys for 
motion (h, j, k, l) -- I can't get used to using them in some buffers 
and not others.  So unless I'm unaware of some trick, I have to build 
my own keymap almost for each of these modes.

ajk

Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Michael Brand]

Hi Andrew

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 13:27, Andrew J. Korty <ajk@iu.edu> wrote:
> I've tried several times to use Viper, but I always give up.  The usual
> showstopper is read-only Emacs modes with single-character key bindings,
> like MH-E.  The d key deletes a message in an MH folder, but in vi, d
> deletes text to a target.  So the obvious thing to do is turn Viper mode off
> in folder buffers.  But I'd like to use the vi keys for motion (h, j, k, l)
> -- I can't get used to using them in some buffers and not others.  So unless
> I'm unaware of some trick, I have to build my own keymap almost for each of
> these modes.

I hope I understand you right and this helps: I use C-z for this with
viper level 3 to have C-z bound to Emacs. When I open e. g. dired then
the viper state in this buffer that is shown in the mode line is <E>
meaning Emacs. In this mode the Emacs keys are active like e. g. `f'
to open the file in a new buffer or p/n to go up/down. Back in dired
and after C-z the viper state changes to <V> meaning viper. In this
mode the vi keys are active like e. g. `f' to find a certain character
or k/j to go up/down. C-z at any time toggles again to <E>.

Michael

Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Eric S Fraga]

Marcelo de Moraes Serpa <celoserpa@gmail.com> writes:

> Hey list,

[...]

> However, I've got hooked. Vim (in my case, MacVim) has conquered my
> hands. I know I'm risking myself a lot by saying it on an
> emacs-related mailing list, but the Vim navigation and the vim model
> in general is much more efficient for editing text.
>
> (Btw, that's what led me into Viper and Vimpulse on emacs, I'm
> currently using them with org)
>
> So, how many of you here also use Vim? :)
>
> Regards,
>
> Marcelo.

Well, I cut my teeth on vi 30+ years ago (yes :(, on Unix V7 on a PDP
11/45 I think it was...) and my fingers still think that hjkl are the
normal keys to use for navigation!  I do like the modal approach of vi.

However, it's the power of Emacs as a development platform
(i.e. infinitely customisable) that means I have been using it for
almost as long and it is my editor of choice for most things.  For quick
and dirty jobs (e.g. add a line or two in some config file while logged
in from my phone), I'll use vi but otherwise it's Emacs.

I did try one or another of the vi modes in Emacs but just basically got
annoyed so gave up...

I am following the development of org on vim closely, mind you, but
haven't tried it out yet.  However, I would need gnus on vim as well ;-)

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 23.2.1
: using Org-mode version 7.4 (release_7.4.168.g0ec8)

Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Marcelo de Moraes Serpa]

Nice!

I think that the classic flame wars, while unavoidable at certain
levels, just end up sucking energy. Why not embrace and use the best
of both worlds to your benefit?

Emacs and Vim are without any doubt the best two piece of software in
what comes to text editing/surgery. Emacs has orgmode and is a great
lisp platform. Vim's modal editing is best suited for editing text,
and the editor itself and its simplicity are a plus.

Now, many would ask me, why the hell would I use Emacs + Orgmode when
I can use Things.app or other modern GUI . The final answer is:
Efficiency, speed and flexbility. For such an important thing as
personal organization, I think that the implementation of your system
needs to be as flexible as possible, but also simple and fast to
operate. You can't get it anywhere else, I'm sure. Unless you develop
you own PIM from scratch.

I don't think I would use org on VIM full-time; It's nice to have the
compatibility but I don't like VIMScript and haven't tried the
external scripting to VIM, but I do like elisp (although I'm only a
beginner on it).

For my professional duties, MacVim exceeds emacs. Why? Because it is
simpler and more efficient. As a PIM platform (or should I say
framework?) I can't really think of anything better than emacs +
orgmode + your custom hacks.

But anyway, it's so much fun to learn all these technologies... oh,
the geek inside of me... :)

Marcelo.


On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
> Marcelo de Moraes Serpa <celoserpa@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Hey list,
>
> [...]
>
>> However, I've got hooked. Vim (in my case, MacVim) has conquered my
>> hands. I know I'm risking myself a lot by saying it on an
>> emacs-related mailing list, but the Vim navigation and the vim model
>> in general is much more efficient for editing text.
>>
>> (Btw, that's what led me into Viper and Vimpulse on emacs, I'm
>> currently using them with org)
>>
>> So, how many of you here also use Vim? :)
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Marcelo.
>
> Well, I cut my teeth on vi 30+ years ago (yes :(, on Unix V7 on a PDP
> 11/45 I think it was...) and my fingers still think that hjkl are the
> normal keys to use for navigation!  I do like the modal approach of vi.
>
> However, it's the power of Emacs as a development platform
> (i.e. infinitely customisable) that means I have been using it for
> almost as long and it is my editor of choice for most things.  For quick
> and dirty jobs (e.g. add a line or two in some config file while logged
> in from my phone), I'll use vi but otherwise it's Emacs.
>
> I did try one or another of the vi modes in Emacs but just basically got
> annoyed so gave up...
>
> I am following the development of org on vim closely, mind you, but
> haven't tried it out yet.  However, I would need gnus on vim as well ;-)
>
> --
> : Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 23.2.1
> : using Org-mode version 7.4 (release_7.4.168.g0ec8)
>

Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Matt Lundin]

Marcelo de Moraes Serpa <celoserpa@gmail.com> writes:
>
> However, I've got hooked. Vim (in my case, MacVim) has conquered my
> hands. I know I'm risking myself a lot by saying it on an
> emacs-related mailing list, but the Vim navigation and the vim model
> in general is much more efficient for editing text.

Empirical evidence? ;)

FWIW, Org-mode has its own "modal" editing feature: org speed keys. This
enables one to edit and reorganize the structure of org files with
single keystrokes.

> So, how many of you here also use Vim? :)

For quick editing (e.g., config files), I use vi(m). For anything else,
I use emacs. Both are fantastic tools.

Best,
Matt

Re: Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Nick Dokos]

Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> wrote:

> > So, how many of you here also use Vim? :)
> 
> For quick editing (e.g., config files), I use vi(m). For anything else,
> I use emacs. Both are fantastic tools.
> 

For quick editing of config files, I use "sudo ed" - from an Emacs shell :-)

Nick

Re: Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Tommy Stanton]

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> wrote:
> Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> wrote:
>
>> > So, how many of you here also use Vim? :)
>>
>> For quick editing (e.g., config files), I use vi(m). For anything else,
>> I use emacs. Both are fantastic tools.
>>
>
> For quick editing of config files, I use "sudo ed" - from an Emacs shell :-)

Nice!  I <3 ed.

-Tommy

>
> Nick
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Dan Davison]

Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> writes:

> Marcelo de Moraes Serpa <celoserpa@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> However, I've got hooked. Vim (in my case, MacVim) has conquered my
>> hands. I know I'm risking myself a lot by saying it on an
>> emacs-related mailing list, but the Vim navigation and the vim model
>> in general is much more efficient for editing text.
>
> Empirical evidence? ;)
>
> FWIW, Org-mode has its own "modal" editing feature: org speed keys. This
> enables one to edit and reorganize the structure of org files with
> single keystrokes.
>
>> So, how many of you here also use Vim? :)
>
> For quick editing (e.g., config files), I use vi(m). For anything else,
> I use emacs. Both are fantastic tools.

Doesn't emacsclient make emacs just as quick for editing of random files
encountered at the command line? If emacsclient is aliased to, say, 'e',
and if the WM automatically shifts focus to the running emacs, then that
should be pretty quick.

Dan

>
> Best,
> Matt
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Martin Weigele]

Am Donnerstag, 20. Januar 2011, um 01:02:51 schrieb Dan Davison:
> Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> writes:
>...
> > 
> > FWIW, Org-mode has its own "modal" editing feature: org speed keys. This
> > enables one to edit and reorganize the structure of org files with
> > single keystrokes.
> > 
> >> So, how many of you here also use Vim? :)
> > 
> > For quick editing (e.g., config files), I use vi(m). For anything else,
> > I use emacs. Both are fantastic tools.
> 
> Doesn't emacsclient make emacs just as quick for editing of random files
> encountered at the command line? If emacsclient is aliased to, say, 'e',
> and if the WM automatically shifts focus to the running emacs, then that
> should be pretty quick.
> 

Can't believe I'm seeing this debate 30 yrs. after. :-DDD

Martin

Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Matt Lundin]

Dan Davison <dandavison7@gmail.com> writes:

> Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> writes:
>
>>> So, how many of you here also use Vim? :)
>>
>> For quick editing (e.g., config files), I use vi(m). For anything else,
>> I use emacs. Both are fantastic tools.
>
> Doesn't emacsclient make emacs just as quick for editing of random files
> encountered at the command line? If emacsclient is aliased to, say, 'e',
> and if the WM automatically shifts focus to the running emacs, then that
> should be pretty quick.

Absolutely! I do something similar:

alias emacs="emacsclient -t -a /usr/bin/emacs"

I imagine my preference for vim for quick editing is entirely
idiosyncratic. Somehow it feels closer to the command line---easier to
get in and out when I simply have to change one or two things in a file.
That, and habit, and the ease of using it with sudo.

(As an aside, finger memory is truly remarkable. I imagine others have
the same experience, but somehow the hands magically sort out the keys
for each editor without my having to think about it.)

Best,
Matt

Re: Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Jeff Horn]

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:51 PM, Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> wrote:
> alias emacs="emacsclient -t -a /usr/bin/emacs"

Matt,

Thanks for sharing this. My manual doesn't mention the -t flag. What
does it do? (I didn't know about -a, but it looks nifty)

> (As an aside, finger memory is truly remarkable. I imagine others have
> the same experience, but somehow the hands magically sort out the keys
> for each editor without my having to think about it.)

I wish I could say the same. It usually takes 15 keystrokes, a marred
buffer, and a restart of vim before my fingers figure out they aren't
in Kansas anymore...

PS - This thread prompted me to look into `ed`. Normally, I'd resist
learning yet-another-editor, but with such a short man page, who can
resist?

-- 
Jeffrey Horn
http://www.failuretorefrain.com/jeff/

Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Shelagh Manton]

I like zile for quick editing but of course not every computer has it
like ed or vi. It uses the same key chords as emacs but no extras.
-- 
email: shelagh.manton@gmail.com

BA (Asian Studies) - ANU
Grad Dip IST - UOW

Re: Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Matt Lundin]

Jeff Horn <jrhorn424@gmail.com> writes:

> On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:51 PM, Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> wrote:
>> alias emacs="emacsclient -t -a /usr/bin/emacs"
>
> Thanks for sharing this. My manual doesn't mention the -t flag. What
> does it do? (I didn't know about -a, but it looks nifty)
>

Now that I consider this further (and read the emacs man page), I'm not
sure if the -t flag is correct here. (It may be new to emacs 24). 

In any case, "-nw" is the tried and true flag for doing this.

Best,
Matt

Re: Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Eric S Fraga]

Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> writes:

> Jeff Horn <jrhorn424@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:51 PM, Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> wrote:
>>> alias emacs="emacsclient -t -a /usr/bin/emacs"
>>
>> Thanks for sharing this. My manual doesn't mention the -t flag. What
>> does it do? (I didn't know about -a, but it looks nifty)
>>
>
> Now that I consider this further (and read the emacs man page), I'm not
> sure if the -t flag is correct here. (It may be new to emacs 24). 
>
> In any case, "-nw" is the tried and true flag for doing this.

IIRC, -t is the same as -nw and is present from emacs 23.1 (maybe
earlier) onwards.  Very useful when connecting from a non-graphical
terminal (e.g. a mobile phone) to an existing Emacs running on
X... something I do frequently via =screen= for emulating a persistent
connection.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1
: using Org-mode version 7.4 (release_7.4.223.g71650)

Re: Re: [OT] Have you also got hooked by Vim?

[Michael Markert]

On 20 Jan 2011, Matt Lundin wrote:
> [snip]
> Absolutely! I do something similar:
>
> alias emacs="emacsclient -t -a /usr/bin/emacs"
> [snap]

You might want to consider:

alias emacs="emacsclient -t --alternate-editor=''"

Leaving the alternate editor empty like this causes emacs --daemon to be
run before and _then_ connect to it.

More at `man emacsclient'

As for the topic: I came from Vim, shuddered at seeing the keybindings,
joyed at finding viper and vimpulse and stayed for emacs is a fantastic
platform.

So yes, I'm on the vim hook and I enjoy it deeply ;)

Greetings,
Michael